North Dakota Set To Be First State to Pass Radical ‘Personhood’ Amendment


Read more of our articles on North Dakota Measure 1 here.

Anti-choice ballot initiatives in Colorado and Tennessee have gained national headlines, but a ballot initiative in North Dakota that would have significant consequences for women’s reproductive rights has gotten far less attention.

Measure 1, if approved by voters, would amend the state constitution to read that the “inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected.” North Dakota would join Missouri as the only states with constitutions that define life as beginning at conception—North Dakota would be the first to do so through a constitutional amendment approved by the voters.

Measure 1, known as the “Life Begins at Conception” Amendment, would give constitutional rights to fertilized eggs, embryos, and fetuses, and would ban abortion, birth control pills, intrauterine devices (IUDs), and emergency contraception.

It could also eliminate certain medical procedures such as cancer treatments and in vitro fertilization. Women who miscarry may be subject to police investigations to determine if their actions were the cause.

The latest polling shows that 49.9 percent of those surveyed would vote to approve the ballot measure. The poll was conducted by the University of North Dakota (UND) College of Business and Public Administration, and surveyed 505 likely voters in the state. The pool has a margin of error of plus or minus 5 percent.

Robert Wood, a professor of political science at UND who helped conduct the poll, told the Forum News Service that for the measure to be defeated, all of the 17 percent of undecided voters would have to break against the measure. “By and large, there are not that many undecideds on this particular measure,” he said.

Similar so-called personhood amendments have been on the ballot three times in other states: voters rejected the amendments in Mississippi in 2011 and in Colorado in 2008 and 2010.

Recent polling shows that this year’s Colorado personhood ballot initiative shows that the measure isn’t likely to pass, with only 37 percent of survey respondents in support of the amendment.

The ballot measure is a legislatively referred constitutional amendment, which means that state lawmakers voted to place the amendment on the ballot. The state legislature passed SCR 4009 in March 2013. It was passed narrowly in the senate by a 26-21 vote, and then overwhelmingly in the house by a 57-35 vote.

Proponents of the measure made no secret of its true intent. “This amendment is intended to present a direct challenge to Roe v. Wade,” state Sen. Margaret Sitte (R-Bismarck) said during the senate floor debate.

Abortion is already highly regulated in the state, and access is extremely limited. Fargo’s Red River Women’s Clinic is the only clinic that provides abortion care in the state, and it subject to significant regulation.

The state legislature passed multiple laws restricting abortion access during the 2013 legislative session. State lawmakers passed SB 2368, the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, and HB 1456, the Human Heartbeat Protection Act; both have been blocked by the courts and are being litigated.

Supporters of the measure have raised more than $577,000 in campaign contributions, including $186,000 in contributions from the North Dakota Catholic Conference. Opponents have raised more than $815,000 in campaign contributions, the vast majority coming from the Planned Parenthood Action Fund in North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota.

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  • fiona64

    It is mind-boggling that so many people see nothing wrong with this whatsoever.

    I’ll bet the proverbial shiny nickel that the same people who see nothing wrong with making contraception, abortion, and even certain medical treatments illegal for women will gripe at the drop of a hat about “welfare queens popping out another baby to get more money.”

    Ugh.

    • Ella Warnock

      Ugh, can you imagine needing chemo? Think they’d be able to make the connection that if the mother (nonperson) dies, the fetus-person will also die? That could get pretty convoluted. How much medical care do we afford the woman (nonperson) to assist the fetus-person?

      • L-dan

        Do women visiting the state need to be checked for IUDs and banned birth control? For that matter, will the use of hormonal birth control for conditions that have nothing to do with contraception be allowed? How severe does a condition need to be before it’s ok to inconvenience a blastocyst-person’s inalienable right to life?

        Are women to be banned from coffee? Stress in general? After all these can cause miscarriage or make things inhospitable for implantation too. How far should people constrain their lives because they might possibly develop a case of ‘there’s a person inside me’? How would they enforce it? It’s perfectly ok to go out drinking…unless you’re sexually active. How do you police that?

        It’s a crazy rabbit hole all the way down.

        • fiona64

          Well, see, if the wimmenfolks would just stay home and keep house like they’re supposed-ta, we wouldn’t be worryin’ about this …

          /snark that really needs to be imagined in France McDormand’s voice from “Fargo”

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, thanks, that’ll be in my head all day long now. ;-p

          • HeilMary1

            “I jus think I’m gonna barf!”

          • fiona64

            “I’m just over here pukin’ …”

      • xuinkrbin

        Where in these proposals is it stated the Woman is treated as a non-Person? They only elevated the Child to a legal Person.

        • Jennifer Starr

          What child?

          • xuinkrbin

            The pre-born Child.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Children are born.

          • xuinkrbin

            Under much of current law, yes, but not all. For example, if a pregnant Woman is attacked and the pre-born Child dies, Prosecutors may be willing to entertain, say, a manslaughter charge on behalf of the Child.

          • night porter

            Only because the woman’s bodily autonomy was impinged upon in the process. If it wasn’t, no murder charge, since fetuses are not persons under the law.

          • xuinkrbin

            I don’t recall saying They were legal Persons. Meanwhile, the issue is not whether the law considers the biological entity in question a “Child” but a “Person”, leaving My point as is.

          • night porter

            Whatever, they will never be declared natural persons.

          • P. McCoy

            If they do that then rape victims ought to gain the right to charge the rapist and the “child” with rape. Treat the latter as an intruder that has to be forced out by excision. Rape is so abhorrent to me that you can bet that.”child” is going to get executed by surgical excision faster than you can say ‘jumping jack flash’ ; no rapists gets to propagate his kind at MY expense!

          • HeilMary1

            If such a Child shreds its host’s lady parts, inflicts cancers, multiple organ failures, strokes, autoimmune diseases, sepsis and death, maybe that Child should Go To Jail Along With YOU And Your Pedophile Priest Posse. Fair is Fair.

          • fiona64

            Oh, FFS. I get very sick and tired of explaining how fetal homicide laws work. They are special circumstances that *only* attach when a pregnant woman is harmed. They are also quite specifically *not* murder or manslaughter charges.

          • Ella Warnock

            Why are you capitalizing ‘child?’

          • Nicko Thime

            Intentional stupidity is still stupidity.
            Try not to be stupid.

          • JAN

            There is no such thing as a “preborn” child, A child, by definition, is BORN. Learn simple biology! You do not get to redefine what has been defined by the majority!

          • Unicorn Farm

            Do you run around calling yourself a pre-dead corpse?
            You sound like a moron.

          • fiona64

            All children, everywhere, are born.

          • Nicko Thime

            No such thing. That’s ideology making you say idiotic things.

        • Ella Warnock

          Why would we want to do that?

        • HeilMary1

          With the extraordinary right to inflict death, disfigurement, disability, bankruptcy and countless other calamities on their hostage hosts on behalf of pedophile priests.

    • Arekushieru

      Yup, something I, myself, just posted about SPL, I believe. Create the situation, then blame the underprivileged people for not being able to pull themselves out of it, then using that to point fingers at how the system is being abused to cut funding to support programs even further… and the cycle continues…. Argh.

      • night porter

        Exactly.

  • Pinkladyapple

    So would women with existing IUDs have someone run around yanking them out if this passes? What about emergency contraception for victims of sexual assault, is that off the table? What about those that have had an abortion prior to this amendment?, is there a statue of limitations or will they be charged with murder? What about women that have had a history of drug use, will they be treated with suspicion if they miscarry? What about all the frozen embryos in storage? Will they be given names and social security numbers? Will a pregnant woman traveling out of the country need two passports? What about out of state? Will they have to submit to pregnancy tests upon leaving and arriving to make sure they didn’t get an abortion? Will women have their internet activity monitored to make sure they aren’t ordering abortion drugs online? All legitimate questions IMO. Why not just rename the bill “sorry ladies your bodies don’t belong to you, they belong to potential fetuses” That would at least be honest.

    • bitchybitchybitchy

      Is the state of North Dakota ready to financially support all of the programs that they will need to enforce this absurd amendment? I mean, after all, they’ll need to have surveillance personnel or cameras in every doctor’s office and healthcare facility to insure that doctors are not providing women with any of the contraceptives that will become illegal, not to mention cameras in womens’ restrooms to catch those loose women who will be giving birth or lazily miscarrying in public restrooms. And, of course, they’ll be fitting all men of reproductive age with male chastity belts to keep those peckers from poking women, because, after, all, we don’t want any sperm wasted.

      • Ella Warnock

        I keep telling pro-liars that they’re going to have to support invasive, draconian measures to ensure that not only poor women are penalized. They’re going to have to place heavy restrictions on middle class and wealthier women or they’ll easily circumvent anti-abortion laws. We know that the most stringent of authoritarians won’t be satisfied with that status quo.

        Most of them ignore or deny these logical conclusions of their ideology because on some level they’re aware that ‘they’ may well be inconvenienced by these restrictions, and the truth of the matter has always been that they are not expected to be called upon to abide by the law – only the ‘evil others.’

        • night porter

          Yep.

        • bitchybitchybitchy

          They can’t be open about their ultimate goal, which is the disenfranchisement of women and driving women back to the home and hearth. There is at least a segment of the anti-choice community that wants rule by white men for white men.

          • Blue Orion

            I’ve already encountered a few commenters that are at least honest in that they don’t believe that people have a right to their bodies. Hell, Sam Brownback has even stated that. They believe that bodies belong to God. And as agents of God, that dominion of bodies falls to the them.

          • bitchybitchybitchy

            People really need to question supporters of these types of amendments to explain why they believe that they have the right to impose their religious or philosophical beliefs on other people.

      • Kerbal

        I currently live in ND, doing what I can to raise awareness of just how horrible this amendment is. I can also assure you that yes, the state has the means to enforce it if it gets passed. That is part of the reason the sponsors (Margaret Sitte and Betty Grande) want it passed as a constitutional amendment: they want to be able to force the state government to use its monetary reserves to support the programs needed and pay for the lawyers needed for the legal challenges. I can also assure you that, unfortunately, the state will *not* go broke enforcing it; the state’s monetary reserves are in the billions of dollars. There’s a reason ND was chosen by various anti-choice groups to be the point where they try to force this sort of amendment through: it’s one of the only states that can afford the legal challenges if it passes. From there it goes to the U.S. Supreme Court. I’m sure we can all guess how that will go given its current composition.

        • whowon

          Measure 1, passed by the Legislature as a concurrent resolution during the 2013 session, consists of a single sentence: “The inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected.”

          Ashcroft told supporters Missouri had passed a statute with similar language that hasn’t been stamped out in court. He declined to specify how long the statute was in litigation or the cost, but said concerns over end-of-life decisions, in-vitro fertilization and pregnancy difficulties were unwarranted.

          “None of the parade of horrors … has been realized in the state of Missouri,” Ashcroft said.

          In Missouri statute Chapter 1, Section 1.205, in part, states:

          “The laws of this state shall be interpreted and construed to acknowledge on behalf of the unborn child at every stage of development, all the rights, privilege, and immunities available to other persons, citizens and residents of this state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and decisional interpretations thereof by the United States Supreme Court and specific provisions to the contrary in the statutes and constitution of this state.” Ashcroft said there hasn’t been a decrease in use of in-vitro fertilization in Missouri since it passed nor has there been a wave of women prosecuted for having difficulties in pregnancy. Former Attorney General of the US.

          • Kerbal

            Would this happen to be the same John Ashcroft who was criticized for his staunchly anti-choice, anti-affirmative action stances when he was appointed Attorney General under Bush I? The one the ACLU called a “radical revisionist”?

          • whowon

            Passed a similar law in Missouri in 1988…still stands.

          • whowon

            Measure 1, passed by the Legislature as a concurrent resolution during the 2013 session, consists of a single sentence: “The inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected.”

            Ashcroft told supporters Missouri had passed a statute with similar language that hasn’t been stamped out in court. He declined to specify how long the statute was in litigation or the cost, but said concerns over end-of-life decisions, in-vitro fertilization and pregnancy difficulties were unwarranted.

          • Maine_Skeptic

            The bill never became law, so why are you trying to use it to prove your misguided claim that these laws won’t be disastrous?

          • Kerbal

            Note the wording difference between Missouri’s statute and ND’s Measure 1: “on behalf of the unborn child” is the specific wording in Missouri’s. Read the following responses by Measure 1’s sponsors and supporters, and then tell me that end-of-life decisions will be respected.

            During legislative debate on Measure 1, Sen. Margaret Sitte, R-Bismarck, who introduced the amendment, was asked whether Measure 1 could eliminate living wills. Sitte responded, “That might come about later.”

            Janne Myrdal, chair of ND Choose Life, was asked in a radio interview whether the amendment would protect senior citizens from “aggressive end-of-life termination.” She responded that the amendment “could” do so and that she supports “protecting the elderly.”

            Just last week, the Minot Daily News reported that Tim Knutson, Minot coordinator for ND Choose Life, considers Measure 1 to be not just about abortion but about the right to life “at any age.” And John Trandem, chair of North Dakota Right to Life, which has endorsed Measure 1, stated that the amendment “doesn’t pertain only to abortion; this pertains to every living human being.”

            [Quotes collected by Professor Steven Morrison and printed in the Grand Forks Herald.]

          • whowon

            Morrison is an idiot, sorry.

          • fiona64

            Right. Because college professors don’t know diddly-squat. /sarc

          • Maine_Skeptic

            You’re the one making factually untrue claims. Maybe you should refrain from calling other people “idiots.”

          • VikingRN

            My wife’s grandmother was denied appropriate pain management at end of life because of concerns about hastening end of life. This was in Fargo ND. It’s appalling to deny appropriate pain management because of the Catholic doctrine of mortification of the flesh.

            Sadly ND has the money to support and defend thus craziness.

          • night porter

            Does my ‘inalienable right to life ‘include the right to take your bone marrow should I need it to sustain my own life?

          • Maine_Skeptic

            Are you intentionally lying, or do you just believe everything you hear from the anti-choice movement? That bill never passed. It never made it to the ballot. It required signatures from 8% of qualified voters and it came nowhere close. http://www.lifenews.com/2010/05/04/state-5064/

        • HeilMary1

          The womb-trafficking Vatican and its fascist GOP want to make the world a giant Magdalene Laundry, and they’re doing this country by country, state by state, mass grave by mass grave.

    • Jim Ruwaldt

      Given the attitudes of anti-choicers, including one who said, when abortion is outlawed, all abortion doctors (and presumably women who’ve had abortions) will be prosecuted, just as Nazi war criminals were, even though their actions weren’t illegal at the time of being committed. I wonder how they square that with the ex post facto clause in the Constitution. Probably they’ll just ignore it, as they do everything they don’t approve of and prosecute as many women and maybe their doctors as they can, quietly dropping the charges when the ex post facto clause is mentioned.

    • whowon

      Not a word of truth here. Protects our laws that are in place, no affect on IVF or end of life. John Ashcroft spoke on it today. Missouri passed the same statue in 1988. None of the fear mongering happened.

      • Kerbal

        “Protects the laws that are already in place.” Like Roe v. Wade? So, in order to protect state laws, there must be a direct challenge to federal law?

        • whowon

          Roe vs. Wade is law, nothing to do with it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you support Roe v. Wade. Right?

          • Kerbal

            From Margaret Sitte’s testimony on SCR 4009 (Measure 1)

            “This amendment is intended to present a direct challenge to Roe v Wade. When

            speaking of individuals, the 14th Amendment uses the word “person,” but the North

            Dakota State Constitution uses the word “human being,” so the amendment follows the

            state’s wording, “human being.”

            Please clarify where Measure 1 has nothing to do with Roe V. Wade.

          • whowon

            Link? You can say anything you want. If you have any clue about legislation, there are many votes before a bill is voted on. Link?

          • Kerbal
          • SawItComing

            Can you believe that guy actually brought up the Holocaust to support his “Supporting” this initiative!

          • Kerbal

            Page 20 is the beginning of Margaret Sitte’s Testimony. While you are there, please scroll to page 22, where the testimony from the legal counsel from Personhood USA, Gualberto Garcia Jones, refers to SCR 4009 as a Personhood Amendment and remind me how this isn’t a Personhood measure as you have claimed in other comments.

          • whowon

            irrelevant Di you look at he FINAL bill?.

          • Kerbal

            Yes. I can give you the history of the (single) amendment made to SCR 4009 before it was referred to the Human Services Committee. Measure 1 as passed was in its final state at the time testimony was collected. The single set of amendments were as follows:

            Page 1, line 6, replace “defended” with “protected”

            Page 1, line 10, replace “primary” with “general”

            Page 1, line 16, replace “defended” with “protected”

            That is all.

          • SawItComing

            http://www.legis.nd.gov/files/resource/63-2013/library/scr4009.pdf?20141027182316

            Here is a PDF of the Minutes regarding this Initiative. To help you out jump to page 21. Not only does it state a direct challenge to Roe V. Wade but if you continue to read, they have the audacity to say that the Supreme Court may not know when life begins…I don’t think it is very good practice to insult Judges you will eventually need on your side should litigation or challenges come up.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Right. I suspect a PR snow job.

        • whowon

          The only snow job I see is from the opposition.Truth means little if you love planned “parenthood”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Planned Parenthood helps a lot of women.

          • HeilMary1

            If you oppose planning to avoid deadly pregnancies, then you’re a womb-trafficker for spoiled pedophile priests.

          • whowon

            Wrong, nice deflection.

          • HeilMary1

            Projection much?

          • Nicko Thime

            Womb nazis are womb nazis.
            That would be you.
            A simple question, Who pit you in charge of anyone else’s body?

          • SawItComing

            I myself had to have a D and C 10 months after having my daughter. My Dr. made the mistake of prescribing a birth control pill that only worked for nursing mothers, something to due with hormones released while nursing.

            My pregnancy with my daughter nearly ended with either both or one of us dead. Thank god for a wonderful health care team that saw the problem and reacted quickly.

            I have a Son as well. After the incident at birth with my daughter, the Dr. advised that I never have another child. But because I was only 27 they would not sterilize.

            So long story short daughter had what is called Tongue Thrust, they cannot latch to nurse, I didn’t know about the special BCP I was never told, although Dr. knew I was not nursing. I got pregnant, my husband and I were horrified. Dr. scheduled the D and C AND Sterilization deemed medically necessary, I have 2 children to care for.

            So this law would effectively take my right to LIVE away because a doctor screwed up and dropped the ball on my care.

            Thank GOD everyday I see my children that some RIDICULOUS law such as this did not prevent me from remaining in my children’s lives.

            And yes I still cry 13 years later over having the procedure but I know that it was the right choice and I would do it again in the interest of my LIVING children if I had to.

          • HeilMary1

            Glad you survived! If fetal idolaters had their way, all contraception, sterilization and emergency abortions would be banned for all women for all reasons. A 27 year old mother of 4 in Phoenix was guaranteed death by another pregnancy, but the Catholic Church only allowed her the scam NFP method, so of course she became pregnant and deathly ill at 11 weeks along. Sterilization would have avoided this, but the pedophile Catholic Church prefers dead mothers and easily molested orphans. St. Joseph’s ethics director Sister McBride and her staff agreed on an early delivery of the already dying fetus. So the staff, hospital and mother all got excommunicated over a non-viable fetus.

      • JAN

        An egg as a person ballot initiative has never passed, so stop lying! Even in Mississippi! Not a word of TRUTH from YOU!

      • fiona64

        Ashcroft? ASHCROFT?

        BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

        PS: Learn the difference between “statue” and “statute.”

    • http://batman-news.com BC

      Yes, that would be honest. But since when do you expect honesty from people of their kind?

      • Pinkladyapple

        We all know they are lying through their teeth that this isn’t a personhood amendment, otherwise whats the point of the bill?

  • skjelv

    I am a North Dakota voter. I am voting NO on this measure.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Thank you.

    • lady_black

      Talk to everyone you know about voting NO, and tell them to talk to everyone THEY know and so on. And thank you.

      • http://batman-news.com BC

        I can not understand how this can have drawn so little attention. It is – from what I read here – so far the most disturbing of their initiatives. And that is really in tough competition with many others. As someone stated below – be sure to leave the state, and never come back, not for tourism, business, anything. North Dakota will then economically as well as legally take its well deserved place among countries like Afghanistan Saudi Arabia and tohers were women are seen as less then creatures. If I stretch my imagination as far as I can, I might understand how a man can support this. But a woman who does must be completely brainwashed or oppressed in some other way. Go out North Dakotans and tell the legislators that women are people, not cattle. This is sick beyond words.

        • Kerbal

          Unfortunately, given ND’s current financial position, it will *not* go bankrupt from any backlash from this measure passing. Not any time in the next couple of decades at least.

          • whowon

            30 years in Missouri, much more wording. Still upheld. “The inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected.”

          • Jennifer Starr

            So are you happy that abortion remains legal in Missouri?

          • whowon

            Just like it will in ND. Federal law.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Which you have no desire to challenge or overturn. Is that what you’re saying?

          • whowon

            Does nothing to it. Protects the laws we already have.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s not an answer to my question.

          • whowon

            The law is the law, what does it matter if I agree?

          • Jennifer Starr

            So if it won’t have any effect on abortion laws, why do you want to pass it?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Are you ashamed of your pro-life views, Kathleen?

          • P. McCoy

            Why so evasive? Probably one of those “privileged” who will just fly to Calgary if she or any female she knows needs an abortion.

            You forced birthers don’t realize- people Will get wise to you and start advocating changes to Constitution to stop your political manipulations masking as ‘traditional christianity’ – you aren’t going to turn America into some Christian Taliban.

          • JAN

            There is no need for an egg as a person ballot initiative. NONE. It does NOT protect laws we already have, it is trying to establish an egg as a human being and end abortion. STOP with your misogynistic LIES.

          • HeilMary1

            The Dems and the White House should make a big election deal out of infanticider Litter Sister Sosefina Amoa. Her newborn sure wasn’t protected from murder by the Litter Sisters’ “pro-life” law suits against insurance-covered contraception!

          • P. McCoy

            We need to ask our legislators why a War Criminal ( the Dirty War in Argentina) and shelterer of sexual predators is going to be allowed into the United States. The Pope belongs in the docket at the World Court in the Netherlands, not trolling his reactionary cultists here!

          • P. McCoy

            Read above, your state prefers parasites to sentient women!

          • Lee Hostettler

            Unless they are six year olds in class room hiding from insane people with high powered weapons…then the NRA or those right wing nut jons like you, feel that the right to carry those arms trumps those “human beings” right to turn seven…..You are an idiot…

          • P. McCoy

            Right to life for just the ‘unborn’! Damn sure doesn’t apply to Blacks-ask Michael Brown’s family. Don’t you all realize if Cliven Bundy and his armed-to-the-teeth marauders had confronted Wilson the latter would have tried to negotiate with the armed horde; but ONE unarmed Black youth and whoops! Wilson is “scared for his life” and executes Brown and adds the final indignity-leaves him rot in the street under the burning sun as if he was carrion!

        • JAN

          I think that we need a huge twitter campaign in this country- and tweet No an egg is NOT a person North Dakota vote NO on the ballot initiative!

    • expect_resistance

      Thank you. I’m in MN and am willing to help women from ND get to MN for an abortion.

      • whowon

        any women in ND can still get an abortion, they are good if they accept it.

        • expect_resistance

          If this passes abortion will become illegal.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Which is precisely what she wants.

          • P. McCoy

            Boycott the state- young women expat to Canada if you can!

        • JAN

          If this passes, abortion will not only be illegal, women will be criminalized for miscarriages, and watched if they become pregnant! This would severely curtail not only the rights and freedoms of girls and women, but end infertility clinics, birth control, etc. etc! So stop your tansparent lying, you hateful misogynist!

    • Jennifer Starr

      Thank you.

    • JAN

      PLEASE get women in North Dakota to vote! We need a massive twitter campaign! The very thought is OUTRAGEOUS! This will limit the rights of women drastically! Though it is unconstitutional, we don’t need this to get any further with the heavy FASCIST male Supreme Court! VOTE!

  • Shan

    I don’t care what side of the issue anybody is on, whether you believe a fetus should have “personhood” rights or whether you believe women should retain them whether they’re pregnant or not. This type of thing is a civil rights issue and should NOT be up for a vote. EVER.

    • xuinkrbin

      Until the courts either say, “Yes, the pre-born Child is a Person” or “No, the pre-born Child can never be a Person”, such votes will arise from time to time.

      • lady_black

        Yeah. They have already ruled that a fetus is NOT a person, and cannot be a person.

      • fiona64

        Personhood is a legal concept with specific requirements. http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Person.aspx

        Quote: An entity recognized by the law as separate and independent, with legal
        rights and existence including the ability to sue and be sued, to sign
        contracts, to receive gifts, to appear in court either by themselves or
        by lawyer and, generally, other powers incidental to the full expression
        of the entity in law.

        So, how many of those things can an embryo do, again? Hint: since it is neither separate nor independent, the answer is NONE OF THEM.

  • Renee Goodwin

    I hope all the sane women at least can leave the state if this horrible bill passes

    • bitchybitchybitchy

      People can also start planning to take vacations and do business in other states.

      • P. McCoy

        I agree, but isn’t it a state awash in oil? Who moved up there anyway, a bunch of anti choice Texans?

        • bitchybitchybitchy

          I think N.Dakota hit the oil jackpot through shale and fracking.

        • Kerbal

          Yeah, the state is filthy rich in oil money and will be for the foreseeable future. I also can’t overstate the amount of money that has been spent on spreading lies about the impact the measure will actually have.

  • lady_black

    And if it passes, it WILL be bounced out of the first court room it hits.

    • Shan

      Yeah, that makes sense to US but considering that the SCOTUS allowed corporations to be considered legal “persons” I’m not really confident that they’re collectively rational enough to smack down something as stupid and harmful as fetal personhood.

      • lady_black

        Corporations were “persons” long before Citizens United, I learned this in Business Law 101. They are not natural citizens. They are artificial “persons” and creatures of law. They don’t vote. You can’t put one in prison. But they are “born” (incorporated) and they can “die” (disincorporation). And they certainly can communicate. I thought religious exercise was a step too far. “Personhood” for zygotes, embryos and fetuses just cannot be legally worked out under the legal framework we’ve built here. Too much precedent would need to be overturned. I don’t think the SCOTUS is prepared to overturn the right to access contraception or abortion. Not to mention the legal morass that would result in every area of law that mentions “persons.” And that would be EVERY area of law. Couldn’t you just see the Republicans having a cow about all the embryos of “illegals” being considered “citizens” even before birth? Men being ordered to pay child support for fetuses? Tax deductions for the dozen frozen embryo “dependents” sitting in petri dishes in a freezer for a single couple?

        • Ella Warnock

          I think I’ll have my name legally changed to ‘Fetus.’ Then I’ll incorporate myself. Why, I’d be absolutely bulletproof!

          All your points are spot-on.

          • expect_resistance

            I’ve been thinking I should incorporate my uterus. It would have more rights as a corporation.

        • xuinkrbin

          If religious exercise is “a step too far”, We’re going to create legal problems for all the churches which are formed as non-profit corporations.

          The idea behind the personhood movement is to overturn the various precedents; in the eyes of Supporters, this is not a “bug” but a “feature”.

          The Supreme Court only overturns precedent if the legal analyses which established the precedent either change or are substantially corrected from a prior error.

          Citizenship is only guaranteed to Persons born in the United States while subject to its laws. Being a legal Person would not automatically make the pre-born Child a Citizen.

          The Child support and tax deductions You describe would still require a change in tax law, anyway, because being a legal Person does not automatically make One a Dependent.

          • lady_black

            Well, first of all… I specifically mentioned Hobby Lobby, which is definitely NOT a church. And of course being a “person” doesn’t make one a dependent. I can hardly see how a fetus who is a person is NOT a dependent. Will it be getting a job? Maybe moving out to a cute apartment? Is it self-supporting now? And NO, citizenship is NOT “only guaranteed to persons born in the United States while subject to it’s laws.” I could give birth on the MOON, and my child would be guaranteed US citizenship, because I AM a United States citizen.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for admitting, straight up, that your goal is to take away rights from pregnant women. This level of honesty is refreshing amongst the anti-choice.

          • TheDingus

            Only an anti-choice person could argue that an embryo or fetus is not a “dependent.” LOL!

        • Shan

          “Not to mention the legal morass that would result in every area of law that mentions “persons.””

          Yes, that’s what I was thinking of in broader terms, for both cases, but mainly for the case of creating new legal “personhood” rights within the actual physical body of an already-existing person. And there’s the very simple fact that in order to DO that, i.e., get the new person OUT, they have to go through the physical bodies of those already-existing persons.

          • HeilMary1

            They’ll need womb-search warrants.

        • VikingRN

          Scalia will change his opinion in a second to advance his agenda.

          I believe he is quite hostile to Griswold v ct

          • lady_black

            That’s too bad for him. He will learn to live with the disappointment.

      • xuinkrbin

        There is no ruling in which the Supreme Court said corporations are persons. You are thinking of the Dictionary Act.

        • HeilMary1

          Your Bible doesn’t claim Fetuses are more Person-able than their Mothers. Your Delusions are Mother-Killing Muck Peddled by Pedophile Priests who can’t afford weekly “Missionary Trips” for Sex with Homeless Minors in Catholic Poverty Pits where Mothers are Jailed for Decades for Poverty-Caused MISCARRIAGES.

        • fiona64

          There is no ruling in which the Supreme Court said corporations are persons.

          Actually, there is: Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad.

          http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1885/0

          You’re welcome.

        • VikingRN

          Santa Clara County vs Santa fe gave corporations personhood.

          The finding was inserted into a heading by a clerk. It has been considered law ever since.
          .

    • xuinkrbin

      No, the Supreme Court in Roe stated the ruling might have gone differently if the pre-born Child was established as a legal Person. This proposal is simply taking the court at its word.

      • night porter

        Nope. Only NATURAL BORN PERSONS have rights per the constitution.

        • xuinkrbin

          From the ruling: “If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant’s case, of course, collapses, for the fetus’ right to life would then be guaranteed”. The Supreme Court has left open this possible avenue for Supporters of the proposal.

          • night porter

            That’s a myth, my little ignoramus:

            http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/228252/blackmun-myth/clarke-d-forsythe

            Read it. From the National Review, a bastion of pro-life conservatism.

          • xuinkrbin

            It appears the “ignoramus” is You. (BTW, I think it’s best to keep the discussion insult free; don’t You?) As noted in the article, “The 14th Amendment can be changed only by another federal constitutional amendment or by the U.S. Supreme Court’s changing its interpretation of the 14th Amendment.” The ultimate goal of the personhood movement is the establishment of such a proposal at the federal level. As with all other movements which eventually proved successful, attempts are made at the local/state level first, with attempts made at the federal level, only if necessary. The Supporters of these proposals know full well such a proposal might get “bounced”, unless a movement-friendly court hears the case. In some parts of the country, finding such a court is not that difficult.

          • night porter

            Dream on. That will never happen.

          • Arekushieru

            You are already insulting women by delegating them to the role of non-persons by denying them the same rights everyone else has based on the products of a homogamete genotype. Keeping it insult free would certainly help YOU, but we’re not here to cater to the cishet white male regime like you have expected.

          • HeilMary1

            Dummy, are you ready to treat all Bloody Tampons as Legal Person Crime Scenes? — Because that is the Legal Logic of Your End Game Fetish with Fetuses! All Icky Waste exiting Women’s bodies will be collected and inspected for Microscopic “Murder” Victims. Do You Really Want To Go There, Punkette? Well, do ya?

          • fiona64

            The ultimate goal of the personhood movement is the establishment of such a proposal at the federal level. to take rights away from women and return them to the status of property.

            FIFY.

          • TheDingus

            Here is a word you should look up in a dictionary: “if.” (While you’re there, look up “any,” “may,” “might,” and most especially, “no.”)

            Example: IF you had read the article in the National Review, you would know that Justice Blackmun put a sarcastic rejoinder in a footnote. He knew that whether a zygote, embryo or fetus is a “person” cannot be established as a matter of law. It’s a matter of personal belief; even of religious belief. We all have the right to freely exercise our religious beliefs.

            Putting YOUR personal belief down in black and white and voting for it doesn’t “establish” anything but your overweening arrogance, and your delusions. If we passed an amendment that said “dogs are persons!” it wouldn’t make dogs persons, either.

          • HeilMary1

            Then Siamese Twins can never be Separated to save the More Viable Twin, Host-threatening Fetus-in-Fetu “Tumor” TWINS can never be “Aborted” from Male Hosts, and Parasites, Viruses, Bacteria and Tumors have equal “Person” Rights to their Hosts.

          • Arekushieru

            NO one has the same right to life that you would grant fetuses.

      • lady_black

        Judicial dicta, EVEN from the Supreme Court, is not a finding of law, or even a finding of fact. There is nothing in the HOLDING (which is the only thing that matters) of Roe that states all bets are off if a fetus is a person. You have to realize that was tongue in cheek. WOMEN are persons. Fetuses aren’t. They aren’t citizens either. Citizens are born or naturalized. Fetuses are neither. I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in “taking the court at it’s word” because that WASN’T the court’s word. EVEN if a fetus were a person, persons have no right to the body of another person.

      • fiona64

        “Pre-born child”? WTF is this crap that you anti-choicers spew?

        Are you a “pre-dead corpse”?

  • HeilMary1

    Viagra should be banned, if not restricted to pro-creative sex only. Fair is fair.

    • xuinkrbin

      Viagra is not the Male equivalent of birth control. You’re thinking “condoms”. However, if You want to equalize treatment between birth control and Viagra, Women would have to pay $60-80 per month and receive only ~6 pills each month. Be careful what You advocate, even sarcastically.

      • lady_black

        You have no idea how birth control pills work… do you. They are not used for each sex act, like Viagra or condoms. They are taken DAILY, whether you have sex that day, or even that month. The purpose of birth control pills is creating a false monthly cycle by manipulating hormones. So NO… it just doesn’t work that way (6 pills per month).

      • HeilMary1

        Dummy, pedophile priests and GOP playboys abuse Viagra, resulting in Abortions of their Unwanted Money Pits. If you’re going to punish Human Incubators with Death and Bodily Harm by Fetuses, then the Sperm Daddies deserve Equal Punishment and their Enabling ED Drugs should also be criminalized! And Billionaire Slush Limbaugh doesn’t pay for his child sex-tourism Viagra — he Steals It from his urologist. Be careful what You advocate, even Pompously, MOTHER KILLER.

        • P. McCoy

          Yeah those “pro life ditto heads” support a child molester and Rush isn’t even Catholic, eh Mary? Well as WE know, birds that flock together share the same dump space too!

          • HeilMary1

            Slush and priests alike sure love those sex tours in Catholic poverty pits, and for all their bashing of Sandra Fluke, they refuse to have rugrats themselves. If they can be child-free, we can too. And we know they haven’t given up sex to avoid parenthood.

      • fiona64

        Yet another one who thinks that BCPs are only taken with each sex act. You need to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh.

      • P. McCoy

        Viagra should be regulated; under pain of perjury, men using it have to sign a document that its use is only for vaginal intercourse with a legal spouse strictly for procreational purposes only. Would sure bring down the number of patients.

      • Nicko Thime

        You don’t even realize just how uninformed you are.
        You have to put serious effort into remaining so clueless.

  • DGC

    Come on North Dakota…. What happens if we said that Lutherans will get less rights then other religions… Fargo! GET OUT AND VOTE! YOU RUN THE STATE NOW! The Measure sounds like extreme Islamic….

    • catseye

      Exactly. This is a fatwa by the Amerikkkan Talibangelists.

  • Zach Rak

    The name is not “Life Begins at Conception”, it’s the “Right to Life” measure. Not saying I agree with the measure at all, but do proper research first.

  • Nessie

    Ascribing “Personhood” to fetuses is an attempt to ban abortion, dumbass.

  • Adocuss

    What makes a human being? It’s DNA. If you agree, this means that the zygote (after the gametes combine to produce 23 pairs of chromozomes, which makes the full human DNA strand) is a human being and therefore is entitled to rights, which is what this measure does. Saying this measure will ban contraceptives such as birth control and IUD’s (which prevent fertilization) is a huge exaggeration. I agree that it would be extremely hard to enforce anti-contraception laws. Yet as soon as a child is conceived I believe she/he is entitled to life, just as a born child is as well. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

    • fiona64

      It’s DNA. If you agree, this means that the zygote (after the gametes
      combine to produce 23 pairs of chromozomes, which makes the full human
      DNA strand) is a human being and therefore is entitled to rights

      Congratulations. You have just assigned “personhood” to a hydatidform mole.

      And there’s no zed in “chromosome.”

      • Adocuss

        So because an unborn child isn’t exactly like a normal human being they don’t deserve the right to live? Would you take that right away from the physically or mentally disabled?

        Thanks for catching the spelling mistake. My phone does that sometimes, I’m sure you can relate.

        • fiona64

          You have no idea what a hydatidform mole is, do you?

          • Adocuss

            You are saying that a baby is something that it is not. I’m not saying that every medical procedure involving a woman’s uterus should be banned. I’m saying killing an unborn child that could grow up to be a human being and have a life should be illegal.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No one’s talking about killing children. Children have been born.

          • Adocuss

            It is obvious your moral beliefs contradict mine. You can vote whatever you like, and I can vote what I like. My main intent was to bring to light the ignorance of saying this measure will ban contraceptives. In my viewpoint it was a tactic to try and convince people who are on the fence that this measure is bad (which is a matter of opinion.) and that they should vote no. There should be no over exaggeration with a vote, it should just be the facts.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You can vote whatever you like, and I can vote what I like.

            Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I can see, you live in Utah. Which means you won’t be voting on this at all.

          • Adocuss

            And why would you say that?

          • Jennifer Starr

            This is a North Dakota measure.

          • Adocuss

            No, why would you guess I live in Utah?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Apologies. Made an error.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “My main intent was to bring to light the ignorance of saying this measure will ban contraceptives.”
            Fine. Enlighten me. Why WON’T this measure ban contraceptives?

          • Adocuss

            Why will it?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Nope. You answer my question. You made the assertion that it is ignorant to claim that it will ban contraceptives, so back up your claim.

          • Adocuss

            I see no evidence that it will, if you have evidence then if like to see it.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Not good enough. Your “seeing no evidence” is not sufficient to support your assertion that it is a huge exaggeration to claim it will ban contraceptives.

            WHY is it a huge exaggeration?

          • fiona64

            No, sweetie. You made the assertion that it will *not* ban contraception. You don’t get to weasel out of this one.

            It’s quite obvious that contraception will be banned by this bill, if you actually, you know, *read it.*

          • TheDingus

            He’s just using the disingenuous anti-choice definition of “contraception.” Of course it will outlaw those things the Greens THINK are abortifacients, like IUDs and the morning after pill.

          • TheDingus

            Because according to the anti-choice movement, anything that prevents or negates implantation “kills babies.” Sometimes the Pill works by preventing or shedding implantation, rather than preventing ovulation.

            (I welcome this discussion, because nothing illustrates how crazy you people are more than proclaiming a microscopic,dividing cell, that literally no one knows exists, is a “person.” You might as well put the “Men make babies and women are incubators” amendment on the ballot.)

          • night porter

            I always ask them if amenorrheic athletes and models should be charged with manslaughter and/or murder for having sex while in position of a hostile endometrium.

          • P. McCoy

            What you vote for aids and abets Domestic Terrorism by the violence done to abortion clients, providers and clinics. Furthermore those Ayn Randian minded Libertarians, Republicans and Teapartiers vote to cut aid for the welfare in total of every Woman and born children healthy or disabled in need. They want them to rely on “charity”; ‘charity’ is listening to religious propaganda before you can cease being hungry or obtaining less than desirable clothing. Making you a ‘rice Christian’.

          • lady_black

            “It is obvious your moral beliefs contradict mine.” No kidding, Dick Tracy. And my moral beliefs inform my own life. Yours inform YOUR life, not mine. And your vote isn’t powerful enough to influence my choices. I’ll do as I please. And I will help women have safe abortions no matter what.

          • TheDingus

            Vote all you like. You know what you cannot do? Vote away my rights.

            HTH.

          • L-dan

            The facts are that idiotic ‘beliefs’ regarding the mode of action of contraception *already* has people claiming that many forms of contraception cause abortions because they put up a “not welcome” sign and keep a fertilized egg from implanting.

            How, precisely, is a constitutional amendment protecting fertilized eggs going to avoid being used by people with such beliefs to ban those contraceptives? IUDs are equated with murder in the eyes of those who put these laws up. Pointing this out to those on the fence is a tactic that shines a light of truth upon the deceptive “oh no, we just care about life” advertising. No exaggeration needed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You have the right to make any determinations you wish about any pregnancies that you gestate inside your own body.

          • fiona64

            You still have no idea what a hydatidform mole is. Clue: it’s not a fetus, but it still has all of the qualities that you have said make it a “human being.” Educate yourself. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000909.htm

          • Adocuss

            A hydatidform mole is a complication in which the fertilized egg has extra maternal chromozomes that become a tumorous growth. Tumors are caused by changes in DNA. (In other words, not normal) Anybody can look it up on google, you don’t have to try and make me sound uneducated.

          • fiona64

            I don’t think your zed is being caused by the telephone …

            In any event, the point remains that if all you are going on to make something a human being is human DNA, you are assigning personhood to hydatidform moles, hangnails, and dandruff.

            Personhood is a legal status that attaches at *birth.* Assigning it to embryos does *exactly* what the author of this piece says it will: it takes away women’s rights to decide when or whether they will have children, what medical treatments they can have, etc., because some slack-jawed yokels think that an embryo is the same as an infant.

          • Adocuss

            Okay redefinition, human DNA and differentiated cell roles..

          • fiona64

            Those still don’t make a person.

            A given embryo may or may not be viable. Live birth is what creates a person, and that is what our laws say. Everything else is just potential. Even wanted pregnancies go dreadfully wrong sometimes, you know …

            Anyway, you endorse a position that affords rights to something that may well pass out of a woman’s body at menses (which is what happens to about 70 percent of zygotes) without ever implanting and thus causing a pregnancy. Don’t believe me? Re-read the text: it claims that life is to be protected starting at “fertilization” (never mind that the moment that “fertilization” is undetectable with present medical science). Should women be prosecuted each month when they get their periods, lest a ‘person’ be contained in the tampon?

            That’s the logical end of what you support.

          • Adocuss

            I would hope it would not lead to unnecessary prosecutions. Protecting the lives of the unborn should be a good thing. I agree with you, it’s flawed and there are many gray areas. I just believe in the positive that this law could do, protecting the lives of unborn children deemed as ‘accidents’. If there was a feasible way to save the fetus’ life and protect the choices of the mother I’d be all for it. I’m not saying that it should have more rights than the mother or even the same amount, I’m saying that if at all possible, it should have the right to live.

          • fiona64

            I’m not saying that it should have more rights than the mother or even
            the same amount, I’m saying that if at all possible, it should have the
            right to live.

            You cannot assign a “right” of any ilk to a fetus without taking rights away from a pregnant woman.

            You don’t get to make reproductive decisions for anyone other than yourself.

          • Adocuss

            Okay, you can kill your fetus. That’s your choice I can’t stop you. But you should have to deal with consequenses.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why?

          • night porter

            What consequences do you have in mind, for say a woman who ends a pregnancy at 4 weeks gestation, when the embryo is smaller than a pea and has no brain?

          • HeilMary1

            Magdalene Laundries.

          • catseye

            Complete with the septic tank full of already-born dead babies out back.

          • HeilMary1

            Then YOU should deal with being jailed for your own coffee-induced abortions, numbskull! And paternity tests run on “tampon babies” should put most anti-choice men in jail for their brood mares’ coffee abortions. An eye for eye leaves everyone blind. Declaring all menstruated zygotes as “crime scenes” puts you punks in jail too.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m still thinking about the Barbie size funeral wreaths.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re giving craft ideas to Hobby Lobby! — fetus funeral wreath making supplies in aisle 5!

          • expect_resistance

            I found the link to the tampon casket – http://righttolifefunerals.webstarts.com/how_to.html

          • HeilMary1

            My original comment got deleted!

          • expect_resistance

            There’s a new modorator. Pretty annoyed about it.

          • HeilMary1

            If priests were presented with such caskets, they’d remember why they made a holy sacrament of swearing off marriage to women.

          • expect_resistance

            P.s. I love that quote, something like, “an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.”

          • Arekushieru

            I would say most ESPECIALLY it would put them in jail, since THEY’RE the ones who assume that they can do no wrong but women, no matter whether or not they were forced into the situation, can never do any right. So, they will believe they are doing nothing wrong by ‘permitting’ their women to ingest coffee, but legislation like that which you were describing would come and take a HUGELY satisfying bite out of their asses.

            Also, as you consistently point out, these people resemble abusers, that seems to hold even more true when you consider that one of the most common goals of domestic abusers is reproductive sabotage rather than forced abortion.

          • HeilMary1

            My comment got deleted by the mother killers!

          • night porter

            New community manager, they are probably sticking to the TOS, and deleting anything – by either side – that is remotely on the line.

            I have kept my posts PG for the most part because of this.

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t remember what I wrote, but I don’t use four letter words or make threats.

          • P. McCoy

            Consequnces ? What do you feel when you get rid of parasites from your pets? Relief!

            Can’t use that fundie truth torture session outcomes that render Women who succumb to the cult holding up signs in People’s Temple hive mind set stating:” I regret my abortion. ”

            We aren’t rubes and slaves to cults here, pallie.

          • Ella Warnock

            Abortion is a consequence, so ‘dealing’ with it is, obviously, a given.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, there won’t be any consequences.

          • fiona64

            What consequences? The consequence of no longer being pregnant? The consequence of actually being alive?

            Dude, you are talking to someone who nearly died gestating a wanted pregnancy. You don’t get to decide how much medical risk I’m going to take. Feel free to gestate any pregnancy that happens in *your* body, but you don’t get to make that call for anyone else.

          • P. McCoy

            Your premise is faulty because you choose ‘unborn children’ to describe entities. Religious innaccuracies have NO meaning here. It is perverse and sociopatic as well as presumptuous to meddle in the sex lives and medical decisions of complete strangers. The fact that you do so shows that you have bowed to some onerous cult.

          • Ella Warnock

            I would hope it would not lead to unnecessary prosecutions.

            Let us look to the illustrious ‘war on drugs’ for an example of what that sort of ‘hope’ really looks like in the naked light of day, shall we?

          • fiona64

            I know, right? I was ::thisclose:: to telling him to hope in one hand and shit in the other …

          • lady_black

            Not at MY bodily expense, honey. YOU may use your body to gestate “accidental humans” because you’ll never lay a hand upon MY body to enslave it.

          • TheDingus

            There are no gray areas. None. Either women are people, or fetuses are. It can’t be both. You cannot “protect” zygotes without sticking your nose inside women’s bodies. You cannot compel child bearing without stripping women of all their rights, including the right to life.

            The right to live does not include the right to force someone else to keep you alive.

            Either women are people with inalienable rights, or zygotes usurp their rights when they’re created (unbeknownst to anyone), which just means men take over women’s bodies when they ejaculate. (What a coincidence; why it’s almost as if you’re arguing that men own women’s bodies.)

            Your position is indeed flawed: so flawed it cannot stand in a civil society where each individual has rights that may not be abridged. It’s not our fault you won’t admit it.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m just imagining how they would go about collecting tampons from all women in ND. Will they send them plastic bags to collect all tampons to surrender to the state for inspection? Will they send women microchipped plastic bags that are tracked? If the “evidence” bag of tampons isn’t sent to the state they will send a SWAT team to collect the evidence? Sorry going off on a dystopian rant.

          • HeilMary1

            What a nightmare for shy women with looks issues! — having to change tampons in front of police who collect the icky “proof” of their “sinful” marital sex and “baby-flushing” coffee chugging. Instead of state money repairing roads and fighting rapists (priests and GOPers excepted), all resources will be wasted on collecting and inspecting menstrual waste, then jailing most women for being born female.

          • expect_resistance

            It would be a colossal waste of money just to exert power and control over women.

          • lady_black

            NOPE, it’s much MORE complicated than that. A hydatidiform mole also has cell differtiation. Some of it should have been forming a placenta, and the rest should have developed into an embryo. In fact, an embryo/fetus is often present, but it will never be a person, and it’s life-threatening.

          • Blue Orion

            By Adocuss’s reasoning, a parasitic twin should not be removed either. It has human DNA, and cell differientation. It can even have a brain.

          • night porter

            I brought up the question of parasitic twins on another forum (along with molar pregnancies) and the pro-lifer in question pointed out that ‘it started out a person, but something went wrong’.

            Actually, what I find interesting, is that most of the pro-life arguments really are ‘potential is actual’ arguments, because they dismiss parasitic twins, hydatidiform moles, anencephalic babies and beating heart cadavers as being ‘terminally ill with no future, unlike a zygote which is a person and will become a person in 9 months’

            That’s what they do. They say that it is a person because it will become a person!

          • lady_black

            Teratomas have human DNA too. Sometimes teeth and hair. I don’t want one in my body, though. Yuck!

          • night porter

            A partial mole is in fact a grossly disabled fetus – it is an embryo that has developed cancer. By your reckoning, such a fetus is a person, because you just said that human DNA = person.

          • lady_black

            So, a fertilized ovum is NOT a human being, Thanks for the concession. A molar pregnancy is a maternal issue, but can result from a number of fertilization scenarios that render it human tissue, but definitely NOT a human being.

          • Blue Orion

            All DNA in you right now has at some point changed since you were conceived. That is precisely how you get cancer over time. It is, in fact, the inevitability of being a multicellular organism. It is quite normal and typical to get cancer unless you are a naked mole rat (the one major exception).

            You cells right now, as we speak, are constantly f*cking up their replications. Most of the time, enzymes exist to removed messed up cell divisions, but they can’t get them all. When you get a mutation in the processes that control replication and cell death (in humans, there are I think 5 or maybe 6 mutations now [it was 4 when I was in college])that are crucial to causing cancer. Over your life, you will acquire these simply by living. Depending on your age, you may already have 2 or 3 of these mutations right now.

            When a person “doesn’t die of cancer” it is simply because they died of something else before they got cancer. To say that tumors are not normal is absurd. There is a reason that most cancers occur when you are older–it is because you are getting old enough to have acquired the mutations over time for uncontrolled cell growth. It is generally inevitable simply because your body is not this perfect machine capable of replicating every cell perfectly.

          • night porter

            An anti-choice catholic nitwit on Secular Pro Life blogs told us that cancer is not natural because it’s ‘unhealthy’ but that pregnancy is totes natural because it’s healthy and necessary

            ffs, these people

          • HeilMary1

            Even if that cute pre-molestable altar boy causes bladder and bowel incontinence, cancer, strokes, limb-amputating sepsis and death in his hostage host?

          • P. McCoy

            Forced birth is slavery, ‘unborn children’ is a religious, not medical term. Fetuses etc; are by function parasites in a host body they have no inalienable rights to that host body. Consent to sex is NOT consent to pregnancy. Your kind as Christo or Secular forced birther fascists will be fought and resisted from trying to turn America into a theocracy!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            One out of every three women has an abortion during her lifetime.

            Women have the same number of abortions, legal or illegal.

            How do you plan to finance the investigation, arrest, trial and incarceration/execution of the one out of every three American women who have illegal abortions. That is maybe 80 million women?

            Bond issues? New taxes?

            What do you plan to do with their children? 60% of women who have abortions already have children.

            Tell me your plan, Sexpig. Inquiring minds want to know.

          • lady_black

            A fertilized ovum isn’t a baby. A hydatidiform mole isn’t a baby, even though it results from human conception. It will never BE a baby. An embryo is not a baby. And a fetus isn’t a baby either. An infant has been born.

          • Blue Orion

            Why? it’s not like a zygote suffers for being aborted any more than it suffers for being miscarried. Literally no one suffers from the abortions of zygotes. There is no mandate or reason that every single zygote HAS to be allowed to develop into a human. Just like you don’t HAVE to let every fertile chicken egg hatch into a chick. Chickens and humans are not rare species. The zygote does not give one single solitary shit what happens to it. It is literally incapable of such a feat. It is as absurd and illogical as extreme Jainists that try not to harm bacteria, because of their belief that all life has value.

        • HeilMary1

          I’ll bet you think intersex XXY, XXYY, XYYY folks are subhuman devils!

          • catseye

            Wonder if it knows that George Washington was one of those evil XXY’s. So are any calico or tortoiseshell tomcats.

        • P. McCoy

          The latter are sentient or don’t ‘ feed or develop’ using 100% of a woman’s physical resources a woman that can’t be substituted as a host body-parasites do that!

        • night porter

          Are the mentally or physically disabled living inside the body of another? Have they drilled into an artery and forced the person to breathe, eat and process wastes for them?

        • lady_black

          I would have a hydatidiform mole out of there so fast your pointy head would spin. I don’t CARE if it has human DNA. So do malignancies. They are life-threatening and NO they don’t have a right to live.

    • Nessie

      The personhood of embryoes and fetuses is irrelevant to abortion; no person has the right to use another person’s body against their will.
      And if a zygote is a person, than an identical twin is only half of a person.

    • Ella Warnock

      It would indeed be very difficult to enforce anti-contraception laws, but there also the fact that as soon a a child is conceived, there are a myriad of factors that will effect whether or not the zygote will implant and many of those factors include substances and stressors that while not being ideal for implantation, are also perfectly legal to ingest or experience – as well, in cases of anxiety or stress – difficult to avoid.

      Until and unless it does implant, conception is the great unknown. If it fails to implant and passes with menses, it was always unknown. Few women I’ve ever come across are troubled by this rather common occurrence, although a few are squeamish about it, and it does happen frequently without the use of any contraception at all.

      It’s doubtful at this point, anyway, that conception will be detected without the attendant implantation, so this is where ‘personhood’ gets very, very fuzzy. I mean, great, there’s been a conception; and it’s now entitled to certain rights. If it never implanted and was never going to, did it still have rights equal to the woman’s? Is there anything she should do or stop doing during the period of time after a ‘possible’ conception but before implantation? What are those things, and for what period of time should she do or not do or avoid those things to give the conceptus the optimal chance to implant? If she’s ovulating and having sex AND on top of her contraception (which can fail), do we simply treat her as ‘pre-pregnant’ at all times, anyway?

      I understand that your concern is for the newly-created human DNA, but there’s a lot between here to not only start (implant) a pregnancy, but carry one to term. There are so many things we just don’t know about why the process isn’t always successful that incorrect or illegitimate claims could be somewhat carelessly tossed around and cause something innocent to quite easily – and without proper due process – end up being viewed through the prism of criminality. Drawing the line at conception would be the fuzziest line of all, because we need proof – implantation – that it has occurred; and much of the time we never get that.

      • night porter

        You usually mess around, but I do enjoy your longer posts, because you are really rather intelligent and thoughtful.

        • Ella Warnock

          Well, thank you, purr. I’ve always had the tendency to be class clown, but I do care deeply about these issues.

          • night porter

            For a sloot!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • expect_resistance

        Standing ovation. Awesome post. I’m saving this one.

        • Ella Warnock

          Thank you, e-r, I’m honored.

          • expect_resistance

            :)

      • lady_black

        The thought of non-implanting embryos never bothered me a bit. I have always had REAL problems to think about, and it just wasn’t meant to be. After all, we have no red flashing light on our abdomen that alert us that conception has happened. If it doesn’t implant, we have a period. We never know, because it doesn’t matter. That’s the way our bodies evolved to handle reproduction. It’s a highly wasteful process.

        • Blue Orion

          VERY true. If it were not for the tendency of humans to mate constantly (notice our lack of an estrus cycle) we would be a very rare species indeed. It’s bizarre to mourn an aborted zygote, considering how many of them fail constantly. You could easily say that sex is an abortive act, considering how many miscarriages it generates.

      • HeilMary1

        Standing ovation from the withstanding ovulation audience!

    • night porter

      DNA does not make a human being, the presence of a mind does, and a fetus does not have a mind, fyi.

      No mind = no rights.

      BTW, even if it did have a mind, it would not have a right to a woman’s body without explicit and ongoing consent. I can’t use your body as life support without your consent, and neither can a fetus.

    • night porter

      It’s DNA. If you agree, this means that the zygote (after the gametes combine to produce 23 pairs of chromozomes

      So, according to you, Down Syndrome = not a person, because they have the wrong # of chromosomes?

      • Adocuss

        Your right, that was a mistake of mine. Apologies.

        • lady_black

          Damn right. And it’s not the only mistake.

    • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

      Having 46 chromosomes does not make a life form human. Two types of antelope also have 46 chromosomes. What makes human life “human” is the “expression” of DNA. Until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype at birth, there is no human life. It is impossible to tell if the DNA will express human life because “expression” is time dependent and does not produce a living human until birth.

      • Adocuss

        What about 2 seconds before birth? 2 hours? 2 days?

        • Jennifer Starr

          Straw man. Never happens.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Straw man. Never happens.

        • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

          There is a transformation from potential life to human life that occurs at birth. The fetal heart must transform into the human heart and the fetal respiratory system, digestive system and brain must transform from fetal systems to human systems. Until the changes occur, there is a human fetus, after the changes occur there is a human life. One does not know what the future will bring, but at that point there is a human that has been proved capable of human life. The changes are usually complete 10 seconds after birth.

          • Paul

            Damn that Russ is smart…a legend in his own mind. Remember: Lose a fetus and save a baby.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            Ad hominem fallacy. If you have a cogent thought then you might want to bring it in the open. Simply avoiding the issue is evidence your ideas are wrong. You might want to look up “Ad Hominem Fallacy.”

          • catseye

            Just want to let you know; we love and appreciate our pro-choice brothers.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            I am waiting for you to make an intelligent rebuttal.
            You understand you will look like a fool if you don’t find something to support your fantasies.

          • Arekushieru

            You have difficulty understanding that there are differences between phenotype and genotype? Let me clue ya in? Phenotype is the expression of certain characteristics associated with a genotype. There’s a REASON why Ob/Gyns wait to assign sex at birth, btw. What Russell is talking about is no different than that. See how SIMPLE that was?

          • lady_black

            No. Actually he’s correct. The heart of a fetus is distinctly different from the heart after birth. There are holes in it. Normally they close at first breath, and blood is no longer shunted away from the lungs as it was in fetal life. If these holes don’t close, they’re called septal defects and the neonate will not survive without emergency surgery to close them. They may not even be able to resuscitate it. A neonate that cannot oxygenate his own blood won’t make it. It can’t survive as a human.

          • fiona64

            He’s right, Paul. Let me break it down for you: all of the time you spend on-line bloviating about embryonic “personhood” or standing in front of clinics shrieking at women (or, as you doubtless call it, “sidewalk counseling”) could be spent in working with at-risk infants and children. But you don’t do that, because actual born entities are complicated, right? You can’t project your sad fee-fees onto them the way you can an embryo, so you don’t bother with the born, sapient, sentient kids. And many of them *die.*

        • night porter

          Birth = abortion = termination of pregnancy

          The point of abortion is to end the pregnancy. Birth ends pregnancy. Nitwit.

          • expect_resistance

            What the hells up with the LAN antichoice folks there? They are not in touch with reality. I’ve been mostly watching and sometimes commenting for a day plus and I can’t take it anymore. Arguing with them is like banging my head on a wall. Logic escapes them. I don’t know how lady black does it. I’m in awe of her. And Calvin is such a condescending (inset expletive) I can’t belive they think he’s a “gentleman.”

          • night porter

            It’s pretty funny actually. I have seen them deny reality when another pro lifer was arguing that a zygote cannot actually be an individual since it can split into twins and then recombine.

            If individual human life starts at conception, then how can it be possible that that life can split into multiples and then recombine? Does someone die? What goes on?

            And they just ignored him and kept repeating that life starts at conception.

          • expect_resistance

            They want simplicity and can’t understand or are ignoring a complex argument like this. They stick with their talking points.

          • lady_black

            A hydatidiform mole starts at conception too.

          • night porter

            The tactic that they are using to get around the hydatidiform mole example is to claim that it it is not a human *organism*, because growth is disorganized, therefore, it does not count.

            They then equivocate human organism with person – all human organisms have a right to life etc.

          • L-dan

            Even allowing that dodge, how would they purport to tell the difference at conception so they can make sure the actual ‘person’ gets a right to life that overrides the mere incubator’s but the non-person doesn’t? It’s a stupid distinction when it still comes down to “it *might* be a person, so it’s not ok to put up a ‘no vacancy’ sign when it’s looking for a uterus to attach to.”

            Seriously, how many of these people who think it’s horrible to turn away hungry zygotes are willing to apply the same logic to actual walking, talking, hungry people? Why shouldn’t everyone’s home’s and kitchens be open to feed and shelter actual people with actual rights to life?

            What? Only pregnant people are required to offer shelter and sustenance to ‘people’ regardless of their abilities or desires? Rabbit hole logic, they haz it.

          • HeilMary1

            The 60,000 unaccompanied uncontracepted Latino chickees coming home to roost here should be jammed into anti-choicers’ homes for permanent shelter. The anti-choice GOP makes and breaks these kids, therefore the GOP should personally support and raise them.

          • night porter

            Yeah, of course, they say that, either:

            1) it’s best to err on the side of caution! This is a precious human life we are talking about!

            2) only 800 women die per year from pregnancy compared to 1.8 million babies. Think of the babies who don’t get the chance to live! (but no, we are not valuing zygotes over women, how dare you)

          • fiona64

            Why shouldn’t everyone’s home’s and kitchens be open to feed and shelter actual people with actual rights to life?

            Well, according to Myintx, those hungry people can just walk up to the local jail and ask for food and a place to sleep.

            I still shake my head in disbelief at the idiocy of that statement …

          • lady_black

            Maybe that’s true in Texass. Who knows? I’m a bit skeptical.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not even in Texas, though it took some doing to explain that to Mathilde. She appeared to have visions of Mayberry running through her head.

          • fiona64

            I guess she thinks that all jails look like the one in Mayberry or something …

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, more than one ‘Otis’ wandering in regularly to sleep one off could be quite taxing to the jail budget. Not that Mathilde is cognizant of something as preposterous as having actual money to pay for things.

          • lady_black

            That isn’t always true. I’ve seen photos of aborted molar pregnancies and a fetus is clearly visible in some. However the pregnancy is never viable.

          • night porter
          • Arekushieru

            But is a fetus an organism by definition? What do you and @Lady Black say?

          • night porter

            Maybe,maybe not. Apparently some people classify it as an organism and say that it is capable of homeostasis, however, lady black did point out that it can’t possibly be capable of homeostasis as it is incapable of sustaining its own life independent of the woman. The woman’s body = homeostasis.

          • TheDingus

            Heck, the placenta starts at conception.

            Are placentas people, too?

          • night porter

            That would apply to a complete hydatidiform mole, where just the placenta grows, with no fetal tissue present. I have thought of using this argument, only they will point out that a placenta is merely a fetal organ, which is true.

            *However*, the fact that the zygote contains the genetic instructions for the creation of the placenta as well as the embryo puts to rest the idea that the zygote is just a tiny homunculus – how many of us are part placenta?

          • lady_black

            I think in molar pregnancies the genetic blueprint is faulty, or the interpretation of the blueprint is faulty (since molar pregnancies can exist with an embryo/fetus also present). In either case, it’s life-threatening because the mole invades the myometrium and causes bleeding. These pregnancies are never viable. In addition, any material left behind after the abortion can become choriocarcinoma. The sufferer gets to worry about that too, in addition to the loss of a possibly wanted pregnancy.

          • Arekushieru

            Well, you see, the thing is, that’s the whole point behind why I argue that abortion isn’t killing and that not even a fetus is an individual. Termination of a pregnancy simply involves the removal of the products of conception, which include the umbilical cord, the placenta, the fetus, etc….That a fetus remains attached to the uterus via the placenta and the umbilical cord is one of the reasons that it cannot be individual. So, if they consider a placenta merely a fetal organ, these are some home truths they would ALSO have to acknowledge, and thereby acknowledge, in turn, that they do consider a placenta a person.

          • lady_black

            Actually there is no placenta until implantation. It’s the first embryonic/fetal organ to develop, because no placenta = no embryo/fetus.

          • Arekushieru

            Well, as far as I’m aware conception is a process that starts from the onset of fertilization to implantation. But I could be wrong because I’m not a medical professional and I didn’t receive that particular information from a medical professional, either. Still, this occurs after implantation has happened so that’s a point you would probably make anyways.

            Just wanted to ask, though, doesn’t the embryonic stage start before implantation?

          • lady_black

            Yep. A zygote is an embryonic stage (but only hours long).

          • TheDingus

            Right, just like there is no embryo until implantation. Therefore if a fertilized ovum is a “person” from the moment of fertilization, so is the placenta, since it arises from the same fertilized ovum.

            Clearly the placenta is not a person. We both know that. It’s the pro-liars who have to get a grip on their nonsense.

          • HeilMary1

            Their pinheads hurt at the possibility that “innocent” zygotes cannibalize each other.

        • P. McCoy

          As long as that placenta is intact parasite pallie.

        • lady_black

          What about it? There are STILL no guarantees of live birth. The cord can become compressed and the fetus will die from that.

        • fiona64

          You need to look up the “Loki’s Neck Fallacy” so that you can see how asinine this is.

        • HeilMary1

          Ask Litter Sister Sosefina Amoa about her 2 hours AFTER birth smothering of her secret newborn right after she arrived at her DC convent! My new co-worker applied for work there, then freaked out when she read of the nun’s infanticide. That abstinence-only, no-contraception-for-anyone Vatican voodoo sure worked its black magic on your holy hypocrites.

        • TheDingus

          What about it? 1 in 160 pregnancies end in stillbirth. The woman conceives, the conception implants, the embryo develops for many months, the woman labors, and she produces a corpse. It’s hard to tell until live birth because of that pesky fact you anti-choice folks completely ignore: the woman’s body is providing life. We literally won’t know if the baby’s body will be able to sustain its own life until it DOES.

          But we do know the woman is an individual human being. Well, WE know that: you people dance around it as unimportant to the discussion.

      • Blue Orion

        I also like how pro-lifers ignore that for most of human history we were completely unaware of DNA at all, and focused our definitions of humanity based on pretty obvious concepts such as art, intelligence, communication, et cetera. Never in all of history, have we ever defined humanity, the concept of a person, as having a heart, liver, etc. Because those things aren’t unique. Neither is DNA. It’s only the expression of certain genes that gives us the “human” phenotype. And DNA is make of the same organic molecules across all life.

        • night porter

          Yeah, they like to claim that the bible says that ‘life starts at conception’ because of the part about ‘I knew you in the womb’ except that abortion is allowed in Numbers 5 for adulterous women, and life is not actually considered to have been created until first breath…

          So, if the bible *actually* taught people that ‘life starts at conception’ then why the heck did it take thousands of years for people to figure out DNA? Why did various popes decree that life for males starts at 40 days and 80 days for females?

    • HeilMary1

      So fetuses have the right to shred women’s bladders, bowels, and vaginas, and trigger multiple organ failures, cancers, autoimmune diseases, strokes and sepsis? You must be the CEO of Depends!

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      The LINE is drawn at birth.

    • Arekushieru

      No, you’re advocating that fetuses get MORE of an entitlement to life than ANYONE born.

    • lady_black

      A conceptus is entitled to NOTHING. It may not even implant and become a pregnancy, even when pregnancy is desired. What results is a menstrual period, Once a pregnancy IS established, the embryo is still not entitled to the body of it’s mother. The mother’s body may reject it. Or she can abort it. Or she can try to carry to term, but there are never any guarantees. Things go wrong in pregnancy. You scrap it and start over. My mom had to do this. I’ve been lucky enough never to have to.

    • TheDingus

      No dear. DNA makes it human, not a human being.

      The line has already been drawn, starting with God: “God breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.”

      Breath is life. Sperm meeting ovum is only the possibility of future individual life.

      Or don’t you agree that breath is life? Apparently not. Do you not bury those folks who’ve stopped breathing around you? After all, they have human DNA, and that’s your only criteria for being a “person”, right?

      • Arekushieru

        Especially given that if a fetus goes beyond practice-breathing it would most likely suffocate/drown and or die.

    • Blue Orion

      Having “human” DNA simply means that a cell possess the genes and instructions to perform various tasks, and in the case of a zygote, it can, if the environment is favorable and if allowed, possibly develop into a human that is a person.

      Your hair has human DNA, but that does not make your hair a person. However, one could take the 46 chromosomes out of a nucleus of a hair cell, and put it into a enucleated egg and create a new embryo with the same DNA as you.

      We tend to speak of people’s rights by their ability to suffer, and their ability to be self-aware and cognizant of those rights. If we found an alien species, as intelligent as us, would you deny them rights because their DNA is different? What is a person, and why should possessing a particular arrangement of alleles be the definer? We are treated as being more special than other animals because of our intelligence, but if another animal is as intelligent as us, it is specism to deny them personhood because of the different positions of C,A,T,G.

      If we created transgenic beings with human DNA and DNA of different species, do you treat them as not-quite-people even if they are intelligent? What if a mouse, with the intelligence of a mouse has human DNA? (this is not fantasy–this exists). Is it a mouse to you, or a person?

      Personhood is a philosophical concept. Before DNA, we determined rights by the ability of a being to demand them. Butterflies do not get rights because they have no concept of them. Rights would be wasted on them. A woman can understand the concept of rights and demand them, however. Giving rights to a zygote is a absurd as giving rights to a lobster.

      • Arekushieru

        Although, I am not in disagreement with attaching personhood to a Chimpanzee, a case that is currently being fought over in New York State, partly because there is no equivalent status we can yet grant to other species to personhood because, in some cases, I do think intelligence, awareness and desire are only traits deemed special because humans have deemed them special only because they took on the mantle of superior species, by themselves.

        • Blue Orion

          Of course. Being humans, we are going to treat ourselves as special because self-awareness IS special. It appears to make us unique, because we have always sought to determine why we are different than other animals. Of course, we keep having to move goalposts as we find that other animals make tools (we used to think that was just us), and many animals can count, and hold at least do deductive reasoning. Dolphins may very well have as complex a language as we do. Do we just move the goalpost further, or do we recognize other animals as people? I move towards th e latter.

          And for all we know elephants and dolphins may consider themselves the superior species by some criteria we know nothing about. However, I think it can be argued, that in order to deem a trait as special, you have to have a form of intelligence that can recognize the abstract concept known as “specialness”. Roaches can be said to dominate the planet, but they don’t hold themselves as special in an way because they literally can’t even have that concept.

  • fiona64

    Ascribing personhood to an embryo is a backdoor to make abortion illegal.

    It also takes personhood away from pregnant women by enslaving them the minute there’s a positive pregnancy test.

    • whowon

      This is not a personhood measure.

      • fiona64

        Yeah, actually, it is. Are you able to *read*? Constitutional rights are afforded to *persons.*

        Quote: Measure 1, known as the “Life Begins at Conception” Amendment, would give constitutional rights to fertilized eggs, embryos, and fetuses

        • whowon

          No it doesn’t. known as by who? It does not state that. “Proponents of the movement regard personhood as an attempt to directly challenge the Roe v. Wade U.S. Supreme Court decision”. This is not that. The wording of measure 1 is ““The inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected.””.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think you’re being more than a little disingenuous. It doesn’t speak very highly for your cause when you have to fudge the truth to try and get it passed. But that’s ‘pro-life’ all over, isn’t it?

          • whowon

            what was “fudged” here?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pretty much everything you’re saying. Because you clearly have an anti-abortion position, but you’re attempting to hide and soft-pedal it.

          • whowon

            Nope, abortion is legal, this has no affect on that. Truth is hard for some.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I find it hard to believe that ‘pro-lifers’ would be fighting so hard to get a measure passed if they didn’t think it was going to have any effect on abortion laws in their state.

          • expect_resistance

            If a personhood measure passes and fertilized eggs are persons, abortion becomes illegal.

          • fiona64

            Truth is, indeed, apparently hard for some. These “personhood” amendments have *always* been an attempt to backdoor making abortion illegal.

            http://www.pfaw.org/media-center/publications/gop-takes-its-war-women-states#personhood

            Quote: Personhood laws would not only criminalize abortion with no
            exceptions, but also ban common forms of birth control, stem cell
            research, and in-vitro fertilization.

            Ibid.: The personhood bill introduced in the Georgia House
            declares that “a fetus is a person for all purposes under the laws of
            this state from the moment of conception” and would classify
            miscarriages caused by “human involvement” as “pre-natal murder,” a
            crime that would be punishable by death.

            You can read the rest on your own time.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes!

          • Arekushieru

            No one has an inalienable right to life or, rather, NO one has a right to life that YOU would grant to fetuses. Besides, that was written in the DOI, which is not your Constitution. Seriously, does a Canadian have to tell you everything? Fetuses are not human beings/persons, anyways.

          • fiona64

            I don’t think you paid much attention in civics class.

            The language is a deliberate attempt to criminalize abortion and contraception.

          • TheDingus

            “Must” be? I can’t have my own beliefs on the subject?

      • cantfindname

        no its not… personhood measure tries to decide when the human being emerges from the liberals clump of cells.. it was always a human… liberals have played this clump of cells garbage for ages.. somehow it always creates a human being.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Your point?

        • HeilMary1

          You mother killers pretend those clumps of cells NEVER grossly maim and murder millions of women on behalf of pedophile priests.

        • lady_black

          No, it does NOT “always create a human being.” That’s a lie.

          • TheDingus

            In fact, most of the time it doesn’t create a human being, it creates a bloody discharge.

        • fiona64

          it always creates a human being.

          Someone is woefully uneducated about the realities of gestation …

        • TheDingus

          My big toes are human too. Doesn’t make them persons.

    • whowon

      Abortion is legal, a non-issue.

      • Jennifer Starr

        So you support pro-choice, then. Are you telling us that you have no desire to challenge Roe V. Wade?

      • TheDingus

        One of the things that is so annoying about you people is how stupid you seem to think we are. Do you think you can wave your hands around to distract us from the way you’re trying to make abortion illegal? Do you think you can say “Look! Over there!” and we won’t notice what you’re up to?

        Here’s are some questions for you. Let’s see you answer them (honestly would be nice).

        How do you plan on “protecting” the “person” inside another person’s body? Be specific.

        Can a state “protect” what’s inside a citizen’s body without violating that citizen’s 4th Amendment right to be secure in their person, house, papers and effects?

        If the “person” inside the woman’s body has the right to live by way of the woman’s body, does that right apply to all other persons? Can I now demand one of your kidneys? Your bone marrow? Your blood? Force you to feed me?

        If the State defines a person as including those living inside another person, but my religion does not, isn’t that a direct abridgement of my right to freely exercise my religion?

        Do you think if you make your beliefs established as a constitutional amendment, you can get me to change my beliefs?

      • Blue Orion

        Sure, sure, and laws passed in the 90s to ensure that killers would pay for killing a pregnant woman’s fetus totally was NOT pushed by pro-lifers for the purpose of saying, “see, fetuses have value by law!”. I remember when those laws were being passed and pushed by pro-lifers, and I see today’s pro-lifers gleefully using them as “contradictions” to Roe vs Wade. They pushed those laws for that intent.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Actually, that’s precisely what it’s intended to do.

  • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

    The law will be thrown out. The scientific fact is that until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype at birth, there is no human life. Having 46 chromosomes does not prove the life form is human because two types of antelope also have 46 chromosomes. Human life is only proved through “expression” not chromosome number.

    • Blue Orion

      True that. Unexpressed genes don’t count for sh*t. Having 46 chromosomes of human DNA does not mean much–every somatic cell in your body with the exception of red blood cells and a few others, has 46 chromosomes. I know pro-lifers like to play semantics games and say that the zygote has 46 chromosomes with DNA distinct from the mother, but what happens if the zygote has 46 chromosomes that are identical to the mother, because it was created by somatic nuclear transfer?

      Does that make human cloned embryos not-people in their eyes? That cloned human would be genetically no different than its parent, same as a cell, tumor, etc.

      • Arekushieru

        And that woman had 46 chromosomes distinct from her own mother. So, these people really do not make sense.

  • Julie-Ann Neidlinger
    • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

      Explain how you propose to check DNA expression before birth? If you can’t do that then you cannot prove there is human life. Most zefs are not human or don’t live to birth. In fact 42 percent are genetically flawed and could not produce human life.

    • expect_resistance

      That site contains nothing that is factual.

    • whowon

      NOT a personhood measure. Nice try.

    • Paul

      No use trying Julie-Ann. Russ has the sickness, you know.

      • Jennifer Starr

        It’s funny, Paul–twelve hours ago you basically said that you were through talking to him. And yet here you still are.

        • Paul

          It is just so hard to let it go. You guys have like a little club talking in a circle and patting each other on the backs repeating your hogwash. Russ has there most hogwash to expose. He keeps repeating the same lines. You all ignore legitimate questions and legitimate rebuttal. I guess it is not in the NARAL playbook. This site is like a little anthill with the same people running back and forth, post to post sniffing each other and telling each other how cool and smart they are. You are just upset that someone is mixing up your playbook in support of likeminded visitors to the site who otherwise are piled on with Russ’ BS.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Upset? Nah. Amused? Definitely.

          • night porter

            Yeah, it’s not like forced birthers engage in a constant circle jerk and accuse anyone who shoots down their talking points of being a troll.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, sorry, Russ has valid arguments. The fact that you cannot see that just points out how illegitimate your questions and ‘rebuttals’ really are, considering that YOU’RE the ones who constantly fail to address the actual question. YOU are the ones who constantly pat each other’s backs for making illogical and nonsensical statements. TBSVFS.

          • Paul

            OK. I can really believe you because you are so much smarter than Russ, and well written I might add. I’m not sure what TBSVFS means, but I bet the club members do.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, and you have just proven that you have no rebuttals whatsoever. Keep proving our point. What does it matter what TBSVFS means? If you don’t understand it, you don’t understand it. Why let things you don’t understand bother you? Aw?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No one ever sends me my super-secret decoder ring on time. Darn mail.

          • fiona64

            And mine’s broken.

          • lady_black

            Go talk to Calvin on LifeSiteNews. He’ll love you. He’ll explain how the morning after pill is “abortifacient” (it isn’t) and even direct you to links on LifeSiteNews explaining how Plan B is really an abortifacient because sometimes breakthrough ovulation occurs. His links don’t actually say that, and 50-70% of all zygotes never implant in the absence of birth control pills. But, it’s UHHH *different* if you take a pill that he believes helps that along! And… and… embryos that don’t implant are Very Upsetting to Women Who Value Life At It’s Earliest Stages(TM). Then I suggest they practice lifelong celibacy, because if a woman is sexually active, it’s going to happen. Especially to those who practice Vatican Roulette, errr, Natural Family Planning.

          • expect_resistance

            He thinks he’s a “journalist.” Yet he cites LAN as a source. *eyeroll*

            You’ve explained it to him over and over again and he can’t get it.

          • Ella Warnock

            That’s right, baby. Only the cool kids know what’s hip. You ain’t dope, dope.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, if it’s so terrible, no-good here because you’re not one of the ‘cool kids,’ (snork, seriously, junior high?) you could always go start your own club and be just as ‘cool’ as you want to be. I encourage it, and mazel tov.

          • HeilMary1

            Paulster, many of us grew up abused by Catholic relatives, neighbors, and clergy, so we’ve heard your bullying junk science from your pedophile womb-traffickers directly.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “This site is like a little anthill with the same people running back and forth, post to post sniffing each other and telling each other how cool and smart they are”
            Lol. Yeah, I’ve *never* seen an anti-choice site like this. /sarcasm. Why don’t you go on over to Lie Action news and stroke Calvin? He’ll appreciate your presence more than we will.

          • night porter

            Projection, it’s what antis do best.

          • fiona64

            You all ignore legitimate questions and legitimate rebuttal.

            Sounds like every anti-choicer I’ve ever encountered …

          • fiona64

            If you want your ass kissed, go over to LieSiteSpews; Calvin Frieburger will fawn all over you. You’re both equally ridiculous, so you should get on well.

          • Jennifer Starr

            How ‘cool’ we are? Really? I stopped worrying about that when I left my teens over twenty years ago. I am just me–in my opinion life is far too short to worry about projecting a certain image. And no, I don’t have a NARAL playbook. Nor do I get paid by Soros, which is another accusation you like to throw around.

          • TheDingus

            Wake us up when you actually have the slightest legitimate rebuttal.

          • night porter

            Not at all. Jennifer Starr is my arch nemesis, because she has not yet earned the right to possess a vagina, and Unicorn Farm oppresses unicorns, at her…farm.

          • fiona64

            ::snicker::

          • expect_resistance

            I’m at LAN and I was just told that the BBC is a “pro-abortion” website. Are these people dumb as rocks?????

          • night porter

            If you recall that CNN, ABC and NBC are all tools of the leftist media conspiracy, yeah.

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t insult rocks. They’re good for stoning hypocrites.

          • Shan

            BBC1 or BBC2. ;-)

          • Ella Warnock

            BBC2 is more akin to the US’s NPR so is therefore slightly more demonic. ;->

          • Jennifer Starr

            Awesome–I’ve never been an arch-nemesis before :)

          • lady_black

            We love visitors. Whiners just get sent to time out.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            Look, I love you Paul, you are nice kid, but you can’t take a punch. If all you have to offer are ad hominem fallacies, you shouldn’t post. It makes you look foolish. The best thing you can do is leave the site. So by all means tuck your tail and get out of here before your feelings are hurt any more. We all see you are just too weak to compete with the real women and men that populate this site. Go ahead son, back out. There is no dishonor in being the weakest link.

        • Paul

          Twice I told the Russter that I would end the conversation and once that we would have to agree to disagree. I felt that was the most gracious way to handle our differing views. Russ, however, could not let it go, so this is what we got.
          The more time I spent on the site the more I observed how the ants in the colony worked in concert in a kind bullying, condescending way towards those that disagreed. There was name calling and taunting. There were insinuations that those with differing views might be intellectually challenged. It is kind of like a bunch of insecure girls in high school all guarding their places in the social hierarchy less someone take their place and they have nowhere to go.
          You may remember that I misspelled Clarence Thomas’ name once and someone of you made a joke of it. It was OK because i was kind of funny. I apologized for the mistake and the next post by the same person made another “Clearance” joke.
          At that point I figured what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I was wrong. It isn’t acceptable on this site. Only the “in-people”, the “regulars” members of the “club” are allowed to jab.
          I enjoyed it during my time here. I was able to mix it up with Russ the know-it-all blowhard pseudoscientist and his immature cheerleaders with thin skin.
          I got to support the “less intelligent, wrong thinking” conservative “riffraff”. I was able to show them how to poke fun at you people and now they can see you blister when you butt in and answer a post directed to them. It shows how small you really are.
          If your desire is to change the way people think and bring them around to your way of thinking, you are going about it the wrong way. You are only alienating people.
          By all means get rid of the buffoon. If I could buy Russ for what he is worth and sell him for what he thinks he is worth, I would be a wealthy man.
          He is trying way too hard to appear intelligent.
          I had a lot of up votes from people you have offended and a lot of flack from you in “ClubAbort”. I think I have answered you all. Now, for the last time, we will have to agree to disagree. Do not let Rusty taunt me.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You may remember that I misspelled Clarence Thomas’ name once and someone of you made a joke of it. It was OK because i was kind of funny. I apologized for the mistake and the next post by the same person made another “Clearance” joke.

            That was me. And as your ‘apology’ contained a remark about me being an ‘elitist snob’, I suggested that you pick up a sense of humor at a clearance sale. Apparently you failed to do so.

            I was able to show them how to poke fun at you people and now they can see you blister when you butt in and answer a post directed to them.

            I’m sure there’s a planet where this sentence makes sense. I don’t know which planet that would be, however.

            Now, for the last time, we will have to agree to disagree. Do not let Rusty taunt me.

            I really don’t know how I’d be able to do that. Russell is his own person, he does what he likes. Perhaps you require a thicker skin to go along with the sense of humor?

          • HeilMary1

            LOL! Clearance Thomas denied me equal pay because his playboy sensibilities were offended by my anti-abortion abuse-scarred face and flat chest! And I have a befuddled brother named the Paulster,

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Do not let Rusty taunt me.
            …………..
            Why would we want to do that. We do not like you.

          • Arekushieru

            YOU made the decision to ‘let it go’ and YOU made the decision to agree to disagree. Doesn’t mean that Russell has to do the same. Seriously, and you are complaining about US having thin skins? WOW.

            Name calling and taunting… you mean kinda like what you, an anti-choice male, do when they wave their big clumsy paws around and proclaim how the widdle wimminz should accept the consequences of an action that WILL NEVER AFFECT THEM AS MEN???? You are reducing women to nothing more than meat around the uterus, because YOU, the menly MENZ, proclaim that it must be so despite having no ‘skin in the game’ as it were, and you expect no flack from that? Wow, talk about THIN-skinned.

            There are different ways to name-call, and I’ve already told you about several DIFFERENT ways to do them on ANOTHER thread. Being ableist, sexist, racist, etc… are NOT good ways to name-call. SFS.

            Oh, yeah, speaking of ignorance, y’know why girls form social hierarchies within educational settings? Because that’s what they’re taught to do by the various different patriarchal messages they receive from their surroundings whether that be family, friends, peers, acquaintances, mainstream media, etc…. To look down on such school hierarchies in the manner that you do is to blame women, girls especially, for responding to a social crisis manufactured by the male politic of which you are a part in the only manner they knew how. Wow, victim-blamers, all of you.

            Do you even LISTEN to yourself? ‘His immature cheerleaders’? Considering that Russell is the only guy involved in this conversation and cheer leading is typically viewed as a female occupation, you just diminished the importance of every woman, here. Russell is not the only one saying things, here, after all. I think it would behoove you to do better than prove with each utterance from your mouth that you hold women in absolute contempt, no?

            Regularly on Pro-‘life’ sites the only ones allowed to take a jab at other people are… you guessed it… Pro-‘Lifers’. On this site we are able to accept jabs back and forth, but just because you’d prefer to lump all insults and spiteful remarks together as if they were all part of some single organism with no inherently worse outcomes than every other insult, jab or spiteful remark, doesn’t mean that everyone ELSE does not understand that that isn’t true.

            It’s a public forum, ‘sweetie’. Anyone is allowed to respond to anyone else how they see fit as long as it doesn’t violate the TOS.

            And you think the BEST way to go about changing someone’s way of thinking is to continue the general appeasement of the cishet white dudes sitting at the top of the ladder of privilege of which they are so richly undeserving, even though that has been shown not to work in, oh, say… the last thousand years or MORE? Yikes, you really don’t like women who refuse to remain under your thumb, don’t you?

            Can’t handle your own medicine? Then that’s not a reason to act like you’re the ones who are oppressed. Then, in the next breath, prove just how difficult it is for your ilk to handle the heat in the kitchen YOU created. I mean, what was WITH that parting shot, ‘ClubAbort’? And not even TRUTHFUL at that, since we advocate that women be able to choose whether to complete or terminate THEIR OWN pregnancies, so it would be ClubCHOICE, then.

            Thanks for playing, loser, but you ARE… the weakest link. Kthxbainow.

          • HeilMary1

            The Paulster belongs to ClubPedophilePriest.

          • fiona64

            but you ARE… the weakest link

            I became addicted to that program whilst in London, and was so glad that it came to the US later on!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I loved that program :)

          • lady_black

            I loved that show!

          • HeilMary1

            The Village Idiots are trolling here. They should stick to game shows.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’ve always loved Family Feud.

          • Ella Warnock

            Richard Dawson was my favorite host. I liked him on Match Game, too.

          • Arekushieru

            I liked the guy who was the host that starred in that sitcom alongside Tim Allen the best. And, yes, I totally loved Family Feud as well, guys.

          • fiona64

            Ones they can handle like “Wheel of Fortune.” They aren’t bright enough for “Jeopardy.”

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            Damn that was good.

          • HeilMary1

            Somebody call a whambulance for this crybaby fetal idolater! You misery traffickers would never tolerate the medical mayhem and poverty you inflict on conscripted brood mares. You’d never tolerate the physical and mental abuse we’ve suffered from your Catholic womb-trafficking. No woman owes you the shredding her lady parts by fetuses just so Irreverend Pedophile has fresh minors to molest.

          • expect_resistance

            Whambulance. I love it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, I don’t think it’s Russ who can’t let it go.

          • fiona64

            I had a lot of up votes from people you have offended and a lot of flack
            from you in the “ClubAbort” affiliate of the mothership, NARAL.

            And if you add $1.50 to the value of those upvotes, you can get a copy of the Sunday paper.

            Woohoo.

            If people are offended at the idea of not being able to make medical decisions for total strangers, they should take up a different hobby.

          • fiona64

            Do not let Rusty taunt me.

            I rather imagine that’s Russ’s choice, not mine.

          • TheDingus

            “If your desire is to change the way people think and bring them around
            to your way of thinking, you are going about it the wrong way. You are
            only alienating people.” (Pot, meet kettle. Or do you think calling women stupid selfish hos and murderers is a great way to get them on your side?)

            I don’t give a flying leap at a rolling donut what you think. Think the moon is made of cheese and raise a glass of wine to it every midnight, for all I care. Think you ejaculate fully formed “persons” into women’s stomachs. Never, ever, ever use contraception or have an abortion, ever.

            The only thing we care about is you trying to force people who disagree with you to live by your beliefs as a matter of law.

          • lady_black

            What’s our vector, Victor. I got clearance, Clarence. Rodger, over. Huh???

      • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

        Ad hominem fallacy. If you have an argument, then try it out and lets see if it holds water. Right now you are a proved murderer of innocent babies. Unless you can disprove the evidence against you, that is how it will remain. You murder innocent born life to save fetuses.

      • expect_resistance

        very weak personal attack.

      • lady_black

        Get up, come on, get down with the sickness. Love that song. I saw Disturbed perform it in concert in 2003. AWESOME concert.

    • night porter

      Personhood USA is run by idiots.

    • fiona64

      It’s too bad there aren’t any facts there …

  • TLCTugger

    Would the right to personhood also apply to women at the child-bearing-age stage of development?

    • fiona64

      Would the right to personhood also apply to women at the child-bearing-age stage of development?

      Thank you.

      What these idiots don’t seem to understand (or understand and do not care because women are just the meat around a uterus in their minds) is that affording rights to a freaking *zygote* means that you are taking away rights from women the minute there’s a positive pregnancy test.

  • HeilMary1

    That would put all women in jail for getting their periods. Do YOU want to go to jail for being female?

  • fiona64

    My thing is if you are not ready for a baby don’t have sex

    Gosh, that’s such an educated opinion. I’m glad that you came here to tell us all about it.

    a fetus is a baby don’t kid yourself there are 4 differences

    Um, no. A fetus is not an infant. Did you skip biology class the way you evidently skipped English class?

    I know lots of people who would gladly take the baby off of the woman’s
    hands no questions women who can’t get pregnant for whatever reason I
    know because I am one of them

    Are you? That’s wonderful news, because there are more than 100K children currently available for adoption in the US alone. Of course, you don’t have to take my word for it; the most recent report is right here: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/resource/afcars-report-20

    So, lucky you! You have a plethora of children available right this instant who would love to have a permanent home. What’s the hold-up?

    • P. McCoy

      How many Black or Latino infants have YOU adopted? If none then go pound sand, hypocrite.

      • HeilMary1

        Ashley would rather shoot dead any uncontracepted Central Americans as they cross the Texas border so they don’t “mooch off her taxes.” That’s her idea of Christian “love.”

        • VikingRN

          I think she has a lot of pain due to her fertility problems. A little compassion is called for.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I was feeling sympathetic until she said in another post that women who have abortions should be charged with murder and put in jail. That kind of made me feel less sympathetic.

          • VikingRN

            I haven’t had a chance to read all the way down thread.

            I don’t agree with her other viewpoints but I can still feel compassion.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I do know what you mean, yes.

          • VikingRN

            Just saying I agree with you.:)

          • Jennifer Starr

            I was feeling sympathetic until she said in another post that women who have abortions should be charged with murder and put in jail. That kind of made me feel less sympathetic.

          • TheDingus

            Taking it out on other women is unacceptable.

          • VikingRN

            I agree with you.

          • HeilMary1

            I’ll bet “she” condemns marriage equality, partly over reproductive issues, and yet “she” could be infertile because “she” might be a CAIS xy ‘female.”

          • Brianna Gamma

            Don’t defend reproductive rights and feminism by using transmisogyny (accusing a person you don’t like of being a man because they could be XY is transmisogynistic). That’s not cool. Transwomen suffer from patriarchal, religious backwardness just as much and sometimes more than ciswomen, and transmisogyny in feminism is the last holdover from the days when “feminism” meant “give women the vote, but abortion is still eeeeeevil and they have to be good Christians.”

          • HeilMary1

            I didn’t word it well, but I know what you mean. I’ve come across many anti-choice “childless” child-free married women who have all the recreational sex they want while hurling boulders at gay couples and women who use contraception or have abortions to save their health, lives and marriages. One particular boulder-throwing Catholic convert on Alternet was blissfully sterile from cancer treatments in her teens, but was bullying gay couples to practice complete abstinence and unhealthy fertile women to breed themselves to death. I raised the issue of CAIS teens needing testicular cancer treatments, and often not being told their removed “ovaries” were really testicles. It has been proposed by some scientists that everyone is intersexed to some degree because of chimerism and microchimerism. This makes sense to me and turns the religious argument against marriage equality on its head. What I’ve read about CAIS women actually makes me pretty jealous. I’d trade my probably mostly XX chromosomes and homely looks for their XY natural super model looks. Maybe you can think of better ways of wording this?

          • Brianna Gamma

            I think for me it was that you obviously had disdain for her but you referred to her as “she” as if, should she actually be CAIS, she would “really” be a “he.” Which of course she would not. I don’t think there’s a way to make that argument that isn’t ultimately more hurtful to CAIS women than to the religious right.

            I can understand women’s frustration with their own sterility. If you want children, or just beleive that you want children, not being able to birth them when around you women have to actively fight pregnancy seems like the universe is being cruel. In a way, it is, since I would gladly transfer years of fertily avoiding pregnancy to a woman who wanted it.

            Of course, it’s a very selfish worldview. Once informed by their pain and longing but selfish nonetheless. I can at least sympathize with them while I certainly can’t sympathize with women who have 8 children and STILL think other women should pop out babies all their lives.

  • lady_black

    How about we DON’T.

    • expect_resistance

      Did you see PJ4’s thoughts on this? https://disqus.com/home/discussion/liveactionnews/nun_too_helpful_why_giving_money_to_planned_parenthood_doesn8217t_protect_women#comment-1651079792

      Posting at LAN is a trip. I don’t know how you do it but it’s awesome.

      • lady_black

        Her entire comment is a trip. She has no clue how this all works out. It’s “however I happen to ‘feel’ about the woman or girl who aborted or miscarried.” She wants to bring a bit of El Salvador to the USA. The WORST bit. We all have to pretend sadness at the loss of a pregnancy, no matter how little we wanted it, or how relieved we are not to be pregnant. Oh, and we have to swear never to do it again. Grown woman as child caught with her hand in the cookie jar.

        • expect_resistance

          What’s up with Adam who posts there. He’s telling me that PP hides sexual predators. Yes, head desk. He’s like Calvin jr. in training.

          • lady_black

            In all fairness, IF Planned Parenthood failed to report abuse of a child, that is wrong from a moral and legal standpoint. The problem is, we weren’t there and don’t know what was said at the time. I doubt any little girl who’s pregnant by incest will say it out loud in the presence of the abuser. She’s scared to death. I have serious doubts about the veracity of his sources.

          • expect_resistance

            I agree failure to report abuse of a child is wrong. Adam’s sources are bunk for the most part and he’s making it sound like it’s a rampant problem at PP. I said shielding child abusers and child sexual abuse it a more rampant problem in the Catholic church than at PP.

          • Shan

            I seem to remember one of Lila Rose’s escapades where she pretended to be an underage girl seeking an abortion. I’m fuzzy on the details, but I think this is the one that’s been escalated to the “PP hides sexual predators” meme.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes. I believe you are correct. And you know how they just love Lila Rose. (barf)

          • lady_black

            Is there NO low she won’t sink to?

          • HeilMary1

            You beat me to it!

          • expect_resistance

            And of course they won’t talk about that.

          • TheDingus

            The moral issues are not that clear cut. Planned Parenthood was protecting the privacy of their patients. In effect, they would be reporting the abortion to authorities along with the child abuse, as well as revealing the identity of the victim. What good does it do an incest victim when she gets a private abortion only to have it revealed to her rapist? If the chances were good she would be made safer and her abuser would be arrested, tried and convicted, I’d agree sexual abuse of a child should be reported. But if the girl is beaten and thrown out of the house in the meantime (or worse), that’s not a moral good. I think many here are also aware of how men get away with it all the time: Daddy is a pillar of the community, Step-Dad is good friends with the sheriff, Uncle John is an upstanding church goer, yadda yadda yadda…

            I’d have no qualms at all if the medical treatment is kept private, but how? It’s evidence.This really is a tough one.

          • HeilMary1

            While he ignores the womb-trafficking RCC hiding THOUSANDS of pedophile priests and Nazi war criminals!

  • night porter

    What is the difference between a zygote and a baby?

    • P. McCoy

      Babies exist without being in a parasitic relationship with a host body.

      • http://www.teamusa.org/usa-roller-sports crash2parties

        A Zygote is a single cell with a complete set of chromosomes, half from each parent organism. As such, it is no more a “person” than any other single cell with a complete set of chromosomes.

        • Blue Orion

          Which is precisely why forced birthers would never support human cloning. It would overturn everything they hold dear about conception–namely that all that was ever needed was 46 chromosomes and an eviserated egg. The source of the chromosomes is unimportant. They can come from any cell in the body with a nucleus. If human cloning becomes a reality, than any somatic cell in the body with 46 chromosomes (which is most of them) is a potential human BY THEIR OWN DEFINITION OF PERSONHOOD. Because my fat cells, my skin cells, etc, has the potential to be another me.

      • Paul

        I think the word you were looking for would be symbiotic. Parasitic would be between two species. It’s cool though. People on here don’t care about facts…

        • night porter

          Nope. It is a functional parasite

        • P. McCoy

          A zygote, can’t develop without taking vital nutrients from a host body- did you know that during pregnancy, if the woman does not consume via food or suppliements enough calcium, the fetus will TAKE it, leech it from the woman’s skeleton even unto the point of weakening and damaging her own body? That is how parasites function! The placenta is used so that all oxygen, food and excretion functions needed by the fetus is done by the Woman’s body, these two make the relationship parasitic. We won’t go into rh blood incompatibility.

          In short, as a male who will never experience these issues, you can afford to be dismissive of mwdical functions that don’t affect your body personally. Oh yes, go one and respond with homophobic name calling or using the typical MRA slurs that your ilk can only respond with because when real science is given to you, you can only respond by calling your opponent names.

          No parasite gets to function at MY expense and consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Lastly, I don’t have to bow nor bend to your dysfunctional ideologies nor pretentious notions that state that you have some ‘right’ to meddle into the sexual lives and medical decisions of people unknown to YOU!

        • TheDingus

          No. Symbiotic implies the embryo or fetus is giving something of value to the woman’s body. Parasitic is correct: “par·a·site noun: parasite; plural noun: parasites
          an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host’s expense.”

          One can argue that having a baby is getting something “back” but that’s incorrect, too: the woman’s body creates the baby, she’s not getting something “back.”

          • HeilMary1

            The Paulster thinks deadly pregnancy complications and diseases are gifts.

          • night porter

            But but, fetuses cure cancer, diabetes and help women live longer! they are that amazing!

            Fact is, if pregnancy was so damn healthy and cured so many diseases, don’t you think that scientists would be working on synthesizing it? Yeah….

            PJ4, you’ve met her, likes to talk about how healthy pregnancy is. Apparently she is getting a degree in embyrology, but somehow I doubt this. She also claims to have a rock star husband, have Louis XIV furniture, have gone to private school in Switzerland or something, and have 6 kids

            /facepalm

          • TheDingus

            Any professor who gave PJ4 a passing grade in embryology should be summarily fired. Like all anti-choice people, she only reads the bits she wants to read, skips the bits she doesn’t, then wildly extrapolates from what she reads to support the conclusion she reached before she started reading. There is a marked degree of intellectual dishonesty among that tribe, and it’s willful, as well: they can’t say they haven’t been told over and over where they’re mistaken.

          • night porter

            they can’t say they haven’t been told over and over where they’re mistaken.

            Actually, I read most of your ‘debate’ with them over on LAN, and they were reduced to mocking you on another thread, and saying that *you* were the cray crazy and not living in reality land.

            Cuz you know, only a batshit would think that constitutional rights apply to women, right?

          • TheDingus

            Ironic, since the debate came under the question “should we have compassion for post-abortive women?’ I’d say their answer was a resounding NOT IN A MILLION YEARS!

            They lack self-awareness, and any gene for irony.

          • night porter
          • TheDingus

            Thank you for that link.

            This —-> “It is as if a woman… has a
            right to be a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist, but her place of worship
            is a four-hour bus ride away, and before she can go to services she has
            to listen to a fundamentalist Christian sermon warning her that if she
            doesn’t accept Jesus as her personal savior she’s going straight to
            hell.”

            I believe we can put this whole issue to bed the day a woman sues on the grounds that her right to freely exercise her religion is being violated by these laws. Unfortunately, I don’t trust this current court to give the same credence and respect to women’s religious freedoms as they do men’s like David Green.

        • HeilMary1

          You never let facts get in the way of your religious delusions.

        • Blue Orion

          There is intraspecific and interspecific parasitism. It is not necessary that the host and parasite be separate species, but this is usually the concept of parasitism most people are familiar with and the kind gone over in public school. I know they don’t go over that in the high school science curricula, but in college zoology courses we learn all the different types of parasitism, symbiosis, mutualism, and differing theories regarding nomenclature. Remember, your high school science books is aimed at teenager, so they only learn the basic, broad, concepts.

          Mammalian pregnancy is absolutely an example of intraspecific parasitism. Other examples include anglerfish, in which the male becomes a parasite that lives on the female, and intraspecific brood parasitism that you see in ostriches.

          There is also fetus in fetu, aka parasitic twin, that is a very interesting anomaly that can occur in humans (and likely other animals as well). One sibling absorbs the other in utero, and the absorbed fetus parasitizes the other one. The parasite fetus often has to be removed later on lest the host sibling dies from lack of nutrition.

  • fiona64

    Yes, it does … because the idiots who sponsor this hot mess think that BCPs are “abortifacients.” Why do they think that? Because they have no idea how BCPs *work.*

    • Pinkladyapple

      They believe it to be true. Thanks to hobby lobby all it takes is a “belief”.

      • fiona64

        I think demonstrably false “beliefs” should be laughed out of the courtroom.

        • TheDingus

          They for sure shouldn’t be granted extra protection. The Greens stood to loose exactly no rights at all, nor any money, either. How is that even standing to bring suit, much less win?

    • HeilMary1

      Any non-procreative sex that deprives predator priests of fresh victims counts as an abortion, including masturbation.

      • Arekushieru

        Though, I’m pretty sure that masturbation isn’t wrong in their eyes as long as it’s not women doing it. If you know what I mean?

        • HeilMary1

          Actually, male masturbation is still considered sinful by the RCC.

          • catseye

            “EVVVVV- ery sperm is SAAAAA-cred. EVVVVV-ery sperm is GREEEEEEEAAAAAT!
            IFFFFFF a sperm is WAAAAAAAA-sted; Gawd gets quiiiite i-RAAAAAATE!”

  • lady_black

    Do not worry about that. The Supreme Court has already ruled that contraceptive bans are unconstitutional. I’d be more worried about individual “pro-life” pharmacists who refuse to fill your prescription, and I share your frustration. I went through this when my daughter was 15 and bleeding two full weeks of every month. I suggested a trial of OCPs to the nurse practitioner, and she agreed. The problem was with the insurance company. This was before 2001 when the EEOC said prescription insurance had to pay for them. I got sick of the hassle and sent her to PP to get her pills instead. She had to lie and say she was thinking about becoming sexually active, but at least she got her medicine.

  • fiona64

    Well, see, here’s the thing. Murder is a very specific charge: the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought.

    Abortion is a legal medical procedure. That which is legal cannot simultaneously be unlawful.

    I know, it can be confusing.

    How long should women have to go to jail for having a legal medical procedure, Ashley? I’m keen to know, since you want to “just treat it like murder.”

    Or, as HM points out with regard to this silly amendment, how long should a woman go to jail for a miscarriage? Or for getting her period?

  • P. McCoy

    What goes on inside of MY body is not for you to dictate. A fetus is a functioning parasite and I don’t have to sustain a parasite just because of your beliefs. Take your dysfunctionality somewhere else.

  • Jacinta Swindell

    You guys have it all wrong. This measure has nothing to do whatsoever with cancer or contraception or miscarriages. Its trying to protect life. Because rather or not you want to give birth, you can’t just do away with it. That’s a human being inside you. People advocating women’s rights don’t realize that yes women can control their body, but that baby inside them is not “their body.” It is its own unique individual self made from the love, or lust, of a man and a woman. If you don’t want that baby all you have to do is give it up for adoption. That way you can live your own life and the baby can live his or hers.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Because rather or not you want to give birth, you can’t just do away with it.

      Actually yes I can. If it’s inside of me and I don’t want it there. If it’s a separate body it can move out, find a job and a cute apartment.

      It is its own unique individual self made from the love, or lust, of a man and a woman.

      Let me guess–you flunked biology, didn’t you? No one’s body is made from love or lust.

      If you don’t want that baby all you have to do is give it up for adoption. That way you can live your own life and the baby can live his or hers.

      Not quite. Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenthood. It won’t do a damn thing for an unwanted pregnancy.

      • Jacinta Swindell

        Actually I haven’t flunked biology. I meant that the way a baby is made, in other words having sex, is usually a act of love or lust. And what’s so bad about adoption? Why not let the baby have a chance with people who want him or her?
        Oh, and a baby can’t just get out of your body and “get a cute apartment.” Were you able to move out on your own at 5 weeks old?

        • Jennifer Starr

          Nothing bad about adoption, if someone makes the choice to do so. But no one is every required to stay pregnant so someone else can have a baby. And what I meant by the second statement was that the uterus is more than just a location, and the fetus is only a separate organism once it is able to be separate. Anyone can care for a baby once it is born, but only the woman can be pregnant.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            OK…so, how did you become a woman? If you weren’t a person in the womb how can you be alive now? You’re either alive or not alive. If the “thing” inside you is just a blob of tissue it will stay a blob of tissue. The principle of non-contradiction.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well I was born, I grew, and at fourteen I got my period and that’s when I became a woman.

          • HeilMary1

            SISTER AQUARIAN! Hugs and kisses from another Aquarian! Pro-choice Oprah is our astro twin (triplet?).

          • Arekushieru

            Sister Water Signs! I’m a Pisces!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually Aquarius is an air sign, but we are water-bearers :) Pisces are awesome–my brother is a Pisces:)

          • HeilMary1

            You fish can swim in our pool.

          • catseye

            Cancerian here; have definitely been known to occasionally be crabby. <|;-P

          • HeilMary1

            ALL creatures start out as embryos. If they survive the deadly birth process, then they continue on their species life-cycle.

          • lady_black

            At no time was I ever entitled to the body of my mother.

          • fiona64

            OK…so, how did you become a woman?

            I was born, survived, grew up and experienced menarche.

            If you weren’t a person in the womb how can you be alive now?

            Personhood is a legal status that attaches at birth.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            You said you were born. That means you came out of the womb. Therefore you were a fetus. Therefore you were alive in the womb.

          • HeilMary1

            We never said fetuses aren’t alive, they’re just not sentient until they’re fully developed, and at any time before birth, they are threats to their mothers’ lives. They don’t have more rights than their mothers before birth. Forced pregnancies are forced multiple organ donations by the living to the not necessarily viable.

          • fiona64

            Hey, dummy, guess what? Not every fetus results in a live birth.

            All persons, everywhere, are BORN. Your argument is that a zygote is a person.

            And you wonder why I think you’re ignorant? Really?

          • HeilMary1

            What you’re not getting is that ALL abortions are self-defense medical procedures, like tumor excisions. And because you’re mentally stunted by black and white cult propaganda, you fail to notice that in spite of the millions of abortions worldwide, the world is still overpopulated.

        • Arekushieru

          So rape is lust? Btw, a fetus isn’t an individual. Therefore, you did indeed flunk biology.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            Rape is a horrific crime that should be punished. Science says that life begins at conception. If a fetus isn’t an individual then you and I are not because we were once fetuses too.

          • lady_black

            That doesn’t even make sense.

          • night porter

            Science ‘says’ that human development begins at conception. It does not say that individual human life begins at conception, since many zygotes will split into multiple zygotes, often days later, and then sometimes recombine. Also, two separate eggs will be fertilized by two separate sperm, and fraternal twins will form, and then merge, resulting in a chimera – which is composed of two sets of DNA.

            You don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

            And BTW, by forcing a rape victim to give birth you are in effect punishing a woman for the ‘crime’ of being raped.

          • HeilMary1

            My meanest youngest brother is probably a chimera — he has one mostly blue and one mostly brown eye and he is a dead ringer for Gov. Bobby Jindal — in our Irish German family! My priest groupie mom fawned all over an Indian priest, and it recently occurred to me that my brother has TWO genetic dads.

          • Arekushieru

            No, a fetus isn’t an individual for the same reason that we are. We don’t have a placenta or umbilical cord that attaches us to the uterus. That means we don’t have parts that can be divided down further while still letting us remain complete entities of the human species.

            Also, rape occurs for the same reason forced gestation occurs. After all, rape occurs regardless of intent, on the attacker’s part, cause, on the victim’s part, AND innocence, on either’s part. And it’s the same for an unwanted pregnancy. Kthxbainow.

          • fiona64

            If a fetus isn’t an individual then you and I are not because we were once fetuses too.

            No, a fetus is not an individual because it is still connected to a woman’s body and using her organs.

            And you want us to to believe you didn’t fail biology?

            I’m going out on a limb here and guessing that you’re a young teen who really has been very sheltered and not very well educated. Your arguments point to the kind of existential angst that most people outgrow around puberty, and a very childlike level of understanding of pregnancy and gestation.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            OK to tell you the truth I’m not very good at science and yes I was somewhat sheltered. Maybe my arguments are not as good as some people can do, but I know what is true and I want to fight for the truth. It doesn’t take a genus at science to know that something not alive cannot become alive at some point. A baby is connected to the organs because it is still growing. That doesn’t mean you can get rid of it.

          • night porter

            Nope. I am alive – that does not give me a right to your body, does it?

          • fiona64

            OK to tell you the truth I’m not very good at science

            That much is self-evident.

            It doesn’t take a genus at science

            Please learn the difference between “genus” and “genius.”

            A baby is connected to the organs because it is still growing.

            No, actually, all infants everywhere have been born and are no longer connected to anyone’s organs.

            That doesn’t mean you can get rid of it.

            I’ll tell you what: I won’t make medical decisions for you, and you won’t make them for me.

        • night porter

          Uhm…a baby is not created at fertilization. A genetic blueprint is, that may or may not become a baby.

        • HeilMary1

          Your Nazi-supporting pedophile Catholic cult has mass graves all over the globe filled with murdered mothers, infants and forced-aborted fetuses. Children that survived abusive Catholic orphanages were sold by nuns and priests for medical experiments, slave labor and sex rings.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            I haven’t the faintest idea where you got your information. But to say Catholics are Nazis is historically inaccurate. Catholics were put in concentration camps along side Jews. There have been some bad priests and nuns, but there are also pedophiles that aren’t Catholic. Could you tell me where you heard of Catholic priests and nuns selling children into sex slavery? I’ve never heard of that before.

          • night porter

            Catholic officials took part in genocide during ww2
            http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Ustaše

          • HeilMary1

            Thank you! If Hollywood made a movie about this, no one would be Catholic and anti-choice GOPers would be tossed off the planet.

          • HeilMary1

            Paul Vi, who is about to be canonized a saint, KNOWINGLY funded with Caritas money, Nazi Croatian Ustasha leader Ante Pavelic’s extermination of 1 million non-Catholic “heretics” in priest-run death camps during WWII. He funded Pavelic’s bragged about forced conversions, mutilations and executions of these converts because he believed ALL non-Catholics were guilty of promoting abortions.
            “Unholy Trinity” by Mark Aarons and John Loftus documents this, based on declassified State, OSS (CIA precursor) and War Dept. cables and reports from Army Intelligence Officer William Gowen (whose dad served the Presidential representative to the Vatican).

            Canadian activist Rev. Kevin Annett, the website Abuse Tracker, and whistleblowers on the Catholic Boys Town/Franklin S&L cover-up child sex blackmail ring should give you a clue about Catholic pedophilia being behind the anti-safe sex terrorism destroying our planet with overpopulation poverty, pollution, plagues and resource wars, Your “save the fetus” campaign is really all about “Leave No Pedophile Priest Without a Child’s Behind.” Shame on you for not seeing this obvious big picture.

          • Arekushieru

            Despite his adopted grandmother being Jewish, Hitler was Catholic.

          • fiona64

            But to say Catholics are Nazis is historically inaccurate

            You don’t read too well, do you?

            She didn’t say “Catholics are Nazis.” She said the Nazis were Catholic.

            Good god.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            But you can’t change the fact that Nazis put Catholics in concentration camps.

          • fiona64

            Jesus wept. You really need to crack a book,. They put Catholic priests in camps for helping people escape. Read a book called “The Assisi Underground” if you actually want to learn something. It was not “You’re in a camp solely for being Catholic”; it was “You’re in a camp for aiding the resistance.”

          • HeilMary1

            Most clergy in Europe supported the Nazis because of their GOP-like “values.” In Croatia, 700 priests and monks ran death camps and the Nazi escape rat lines. Most monasteries and convents were turned into bed and breakfasts for fleeing Nazis.

          • fiona64

            Could you tell me where you heard of Catholic priests and nuns selling children into sex slavery?

            I would like you to look up, on your own time, the Magdalene Laundries. Then you can see how they did quite literally sell the offspring of their inmates, and force the *women* into servitude.

            Ask someone to help you with the big words.

        • fiona64

          And what’s so bad about adoption? Why not let the baby have a chance with people who want him or her?

          I am so sick of this patently false claim that “someone out there wants your baby.” There are more than 100K children currently available for adoption in the US alone. Where are these “someones” for those children?

          You clearly flunked biology, because you do not realize that a zygote/embryo/fetus is NOT a separate individual. It is literally using the woman’s body to create its own. It drills into her circulatory system (at implantation) and uses it for oxygenation. It uses her kidneys to process its own bodily wastes. It is not biologically able to live ex utero until the process of birth, which actually causes the phenotype to express. Until birth, it is not actually known in many cases whether the z/e/f is even *viable.*

          Furthermore, pregnancy is NOT all fairy farts and chocolate ice cream. Every single pregnancy carries risks, up to and including death, that cannot be predicted until a woman is *actually pregnant.* Every single pregnancy also causes permanent physiological changes to a woman’s body, e.g., striations on the pubic symphysis such that a forensic anthropologist (which happens to be my background) can look at skeletal remains and tell how many times a woman has been pregnant.

          You do not get to decide how much risk anyone other than yourself is to assume. Period.

          Jesus wept, woman. Crack a fucking book.

          No love, a woman who nearly died from complications of a *wanted* pregnancy

        • Unicorn Farm

          What’s so bad about adoption?

          BEING FORCED TO GESTATE AND GIVE BIRTH. WHY is this hard for you to understand?

          • Shan

            “BEING FORCED TO GESTATE AND GIVE BIRTH”

            What’s so bad about that? It’s only nine months! And then just a few hours of blood, sweat and tears (and possibly injury or death) and then all you have to do is hand over your baby to strangers! *eyeroll*.

        • lady_black

          Yep, it can just get out of my body. Honey this is nothing new.

    • Ella Warnock

      Oh, I think we have it ‘all right.’ It’s not about trying to protect *women’s’ lives,* is the problem here, you see. Hence the vociferous debate.

      • Jacinta Swindell

        What about the “women” who are in the womb? Where’s their rights? Their choice?

        • Ella Warnock

          What ‘women’ in the womb?

          • Jacinta Swindell

            You, me, Hillary Clinton, every woman who has ever lived. We had to start somewhere.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I have a feeling we’re heading into the realm of existential angst here. And I have to admit that when I was a ‘pro-life’ teen well over twenty years ago I used to think that ‘What if your mother had aborted you?’ was a brilliant question. But then I left high-school and grew up.

          • HeilMary1

            Same here! — ex-fetal idolater Catholic me realized I got zero brownie points from God for hating on abortion patients! No amount of vilifying the gorgeous Gloria Steinem would fix my Catholic Munchausen by Proxy burned face, and one day I heard PP’s Faye Wattleton mention women’s bodily integrity. A light of Godly enlightenment blinked on: No wonder my mom abused me — childbirth and the pedophile priest ban on safe sex ruined her health and marriage!

          • Ella Warnock

            Pol Pot, Kim Jong II, August Pinochet; many suffered and died due to their ‘starting somewhere.’

        • Jennifer Starr

          There aren’t any women in the womb. Women have been born.

        • lady_black

          There are NO women in wombs. ANYWHERE.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            Then where did they come from?

          • HeilMary1

            They came from XX, XXY, XO fetuses that survived birth and GOP/Catholic misogyny.

          • lady_black

            Women didn’t “come from” anywhere. A woman is a grown female. There are no women in wombs.

          • fiona64

            Were you homeschooled by science deniers or something?

        • Arekushieru

          Dafuq? Why aren’t you asking for rapists’ rights or their ‘choice’, then, too? Although, by that logic that would give them TWO choices to the victim’s none, but, hey, it’s the same mistaken principle under which you operate for forced gestation.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            This has nothing to do with rape. Rapists should go to jail and never see the light of day again. I can’t know what goes on inside a woman after such a horrific experience, but I have great compassion for them. There are some countries like Poland that allow abortion for victims of rape only. That being said its not the baby’s fault that he or she was conceived in rape.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Fault has nothing to do with it. Nor does a desire to punish anyone. It’s about whether the woman feels as if she is mentally and physically capable of going through a pregnancy that was forced upon her. If she does, she should be supported in that choice. But I think that she should be allowed to make that choice.

          • HeilMary1

            You have zero compassion for rape victims by insisting they suffer breast and face cancer, bladder and bowel incontinence, strokes, sepsis limb amputations, and death for rapists’ spawn, whom your Nazi cult will then traffic for sex and medical exeriments anyway.

          • lady_black

            It’s nobody’s fault but the rapist. However, that doesn’t mean a woman who has been raped owes anything to the sperm of a criminal.

          • Arekushieru

            Oh, yes, it does. After all, if you don’t want rape legal, or at least lethal force illegal, you aren’t a supporter of life, you are merely a misogynist. Right to bodily autonomy is only a by-product of men’s right to bodily autonomy, in your eyes, then. After all, the only reasons you can give for a pregnant woman to be denied the right to bodily autonomy is because of misogyny since you only care about the loss of life when a PREGNANT woman exercises her right to bodily autonomy, NEVER anywhere else. TBSVFS.

          • night porter

            After all, the only reasons you can give for a pregnant woman to be
            denied the right to bodily autonomy is because of misogyny since you
            only care about the loss of life when a PREGNANT woman exercises her
            right to bodily autonomy, NEVER anywhere else

            Nailed it.

          • fiona64

            That being said its not the baby’s fault that he or she was conceived in rape.

            Perhaps you are unaware (since that seems to be the case with so many things you’ve posted) that in 31 states rapists can sue for parental and visitation rights if the woman has a child conceived as a result of the crime. They can even sue for custody. http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/01/us/rapist-child-custody/

            As a rape survivor, I am going to tell you that your position is so far beyond offensive that I lack the words. You would force a woman to gestate a pregnancy conceived in a crime that would potentially allow her rapist to have *constant contact with her.* And yet you claim to have “great compassion” for those of us who have actually been through it? That’s a bald-faced lie.

            You need psychiatric help, lady, and I hope that you get it *soon.*

          • Jacinta Swindell

            I think its disgusting that rapist get visitation rights. That shouldn’t be. I don’t think women should be forced to have the baby conceived in rape, but they need to know that it really IS a baby.

          • fiona64

            Do you really think that there is a woman alive who does not realize that, barring complications, a pregnancy is most likely to result in an infant?

            Really?

            And no, an embryo (which is the stage at which 90 percent of abortions occur) is NOT an infant. It is a *potential* infant.

          • catseye

            Forcing a woman to bear a rape baby is a 9-month 24/7 rape itself. Don’t you GET that?

        • night porter

          There are no “women” in the womb. Women are born entities.

          • Shan

            That would be terribly uncomfortable.

          • HeilMary1

            LOL! — who has womb room for 100-200 pound adult women?

        • HeilMary1

          Female parasites have no right to rot off their hosts’ faces, as two did to my best friend before killing her with lethal skin cancer. You would never tolerate such injuries to your face just so your pedophile husband can have his own genetic victims.

        • fiona64

          Please show me a citation for women (who, by definition, are post-pubescent females still existing in utero. I’ll wait.

          No, really. I will.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            I used the word “women” but I could also have used girls or baby girls. They may not be “women” in the literal sense yet, but they are still part of the female sex.

          • lady_black

            So what?

          • fiona64

            You really are that unclear about the phases of development of viviparous vertebrates, aren’t you? Wow.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            I don’t see why you think I’m ignorant. I just said I didn’t mean “women” in the literal sense. To become a woman you have to start out in the womb. Then you grow into a girl, then a teenager, and then a woman.

          • fiona64

            I don’t see why you think I’m ignorant.

            Of course you don’t.

    • night porter

      A ‘human being’ has no right to another human being’s body. Period.

      I am a unique individual, by your logic, that gives me the right to occupy and use your body as ife support – without your consent.

    • lady_black

      It’s not “my body”, nor does it have some CLAIM upon my body. Sorry. It’s not a baby. It’s not a child. And even if it were, it’s not entitled to the organs of it’s parents. Deal with it. Yes, we CAN do away with it.

      • Jacinta Swindell

        If everyone felt that way no one would be born. You may not want it inside you, but nothing can change the fact that its a baby. You can choose to abort the baby or choose to let it live. But abortion is murder.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Pro-choice women do choose to have babies, you know. My pro-choice grandparents had seven of them.

          • Arekushieru

            My Pro-Choice mother has two.

          • fiona64

            Yep. This pro-choice woman who, for Jacinta’s information, nearly died gestating, has one.

        • HeilMary1

          Fetuses grossly maim and murder their mothers. If Jesus was offended by contraception and abortion, he never would have served ABORTIFACIENT miracle wine to that sl*t, the Cana bride! Nor would he have whipped the money changers instead of the midwife-abortionists.

        • Ella Warnock

          ‘Everyone’ is not always going to feel that way. Abortion has been a reality as long as pregnancy has, and women are still freely choosing to have children. The urge to procreate isn’t going to {poof} disappear, ever, so the hysteria surrounding abortion is, at the very least, misplaced.

        • lady_black

          No, abortion is NOT murder, and never has been. Even when illegal.

        • fiona64

          But abortion is murder.

          Murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought.

          Abortion is a legal medical procedure. Embryos are not persons.

          You are incorrect (to the surprise of exactly no one).

    • HeilMary1

      Idiot, adoption won’t bring DEAD mothers back to life, or replace their busted bladders, bowels, breasts, hearts, lungs, kidneys, or faces.

      • Jacinta Swindell

        I wish we could have a discussion without resorting to name calling. I’m sorry if you had a terrible experience that makes you so angry but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a baby. Its not the baby’s fault. Its a terrible tragedy that I don’t have an answer to. I wish I knew why bad things happen, but I don’t. Nobody does.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Its not the baby’s fault.

          It’s not about ‘fault’– it’s just not that simple. Nothing ever is.

        • night porter

          And the woman? Is she guilty? On what grounds must she lose her bodily autonomy, and suffer harm, pain and quite possibly death? What crime is she being punished for?

        • HeilMary1

          Bad things keep happening because YOU won’t quit trafficking OUR wombs for pedophile priests.

        • fiona64

          Jesus wept; an embryo is NOT an infant. Why are all of you so ignorant? Why?

    • fiona64

      The word you want is “whether,” not “rather.”

      Jesus wept; why are the anti-choice always functionally illiterate?

      It is its own unique individual self

      If this is the case, then it can move out and get a job and a cute apartment.

      If you don’t want that baby all you have to do is give it up for adoption.

      Oh, is *that* all? Because adoption is a cure-all for an unwanted pregnancy, right?

      And what about the 100K children already available for adoption in this country, most of whom will age out without ever having permanent homes? Where is your concern for the born, sapient, sentient *children* that are out there, rather than whining about an embryo?

      • Jacinta Swindell

        I’m “whining about an embryo” because I want it to have a chance to live. What would you think if the person who can find a cure for cancer doesn’t because his mother aborted him?
        Thank you for pointing out my spelling error. I always check carefully, but I still miss some of them. Oh, and I could write a paper on all the miss spelled words the writer of this article had.

        • Jennifer Starr

          If that’s what we’re going for, what if Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer’s mother had aborted him? The ‘baby’ you save from abortion could be the person who robs a store and kills the owner.

          • HeilMary1

            Or who kills 7 million (another million killed by Nazis when they invaded the USSR) Jews to get Vatican election endorsement!

        • Jennifer Starr

          The word is misspelled. One word, not two. And while I did spot a couple of places where editing was probably needed, I did not see any misspelled words in the article above. Technically you didn’t misspell either–you used the wrong word.

        • HeilMary1

          Do you realize women have the same number of abortions they ALWAYS have had, even back in Gospel times, and that abortion for obstructed labor is the world’s oldest medical procedure? Midwives performed late term abortions for obstructed labor, yet Jesus whipped the money changers, not the midwives! Simon of Cyrene, who helped Jesus carry the cross, probably was a Silphium importer, i.e. God’s RU-486, for Jewish women to prevent their being divorced over childbirth bladder and bowel fistulas. Your pedophile cult banned marriages for priests to the “piles of dung” MOTHERS of their children! Your death cult bans mother- and marriage-saving contraceptives so pedophile priests will have unlimited victims. And your cult has no problem with abortions or infanticides forced by priests on their mistresses and rape victims! If GOP and priest mistresses can have multiple abortions, so can 9-year-old rape victims to avoid childbirth incontinence and death.

        • night porter

          A 5 year old dying of leukemia wants a chance to live.

          Surely you agree that bone marrow donation should be mandatory?

          A person born with kidney diseases wants a chance to live. Surely you should be forced to give up your kidney so that they can live a full and productive life, yes?

        • night porter

          What would you think if the person who can find a cure for cancer doesn’t because his mother aborted him?

          Thanks for demonstrating your misogyny. What if the woman who could cure cancer dies in childbirth? What if her future is derailed because she is forced to give birth, and it utterly destroys her life?

          No, to you, women are just the meat around the uterus, existing to serve others (as gestational slaves), and not actually having any lives of their own.

        • lady_black

          What you want is immaterial. What part of that eludes you? You are hardly qualified to manage the lives of others, so quit fronting. What would you think if the next Ted Bundy or Son of Sam doesn’t commit serial killings because his mother aborted him?

          • fiona64

            I know, right? The anti-choice always act as though every single zygote is going to be the next Nobel laureate, as opposed to the next Hitler … or, as is much more likely, Joe Blow Average. And they ignore that the pregnant woman who dies of gestational complications could have done all of the same things they claimed the zygote would go on to do.

          • night porter

            Which is just more evidence that they don’t see women as people, with a future.

            Just servants, really.

          • fiona64

            Indeed.

            Love and kisses, Ofjeff. ;-)

          • night porter
          • catseye

            I’ve been over there nailing forced-birther trolls today.

          • night porter

            I saw!!good work!

          • catseye

            Dirty job, but somebody’s gotta do it. <|;-P

        • fiona64

          What would you think if the person who can find a cure for cancer doesn’t because his mother aborted him?

          I remember when I thought that was a profound argument; I used to be an anti-choice dimwit, too.

          Let me ask you this question in response: What would you think if the woman who can find a cure for cancer didn’t because she died of gestational complications?

          I guess that just never occurs to you anti-choicers, does it?

        • almond_bubble_tea

          “What would you think if the person who can find a cure for cancer doesn’t because his mother aborted him?”

          And the inverse could happen. What do you think about the man who would become a evil despot (like Hitler or Pol Pot) living because his mother did not abort him?

          Consent to sex does not equal consent to pregnancy. You want to give embryos more rights than the mother who needs to gestate 40 weeks and allow the embryo to utilize all of the mother’s resources to develop – whether she likes it or not, and whether it makes her ill or not.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            One of the results of sex is pregnancy. You have to know that could happen when you have sex. If you don’t want a baby don’t have sex when pregnancy is possible.
            By mentioning the inverse possibility you’re acknowledging that it is a baby. It would be so much more simple if people like Hitler or Stalin were aborted, but it is not our call when someone’s life ends. Especially if they are unable to defend themselves.

          • night porter

            A mindless embryo is not a baby. Babies are born.

          • Jacinta Swindell

            But babies start as embryos. If embryos become babies, killing an embryo is the same as killing a baby.

          • night porter

            And embryos start as eggs and sperm. So every time your body discharges an egg without you having sex, and fertilizing it, you have just prevented a child from being born you selfish baby killer you.

          • catseye

            By that “logic”, stepping on an acorn on the sidewalk is the same as cutting down a 50-foot oak tree in a park.

          • fiona64

            Wait for it: the bald eagle egg argument cannot be far behind …

          • fiona64

            No, dumbfuck, it isn’t.

          • fiona64

            If you don’t want a baby don’t have sex

            I swear, this anti-choice “argument” makes every one of you look like a 12-year-old.

            My husband and I will have sex swinging from the chandelier should we so desire. And guess what? If my tubal ligation fails (they can, and do), there will be an abortion so fast that your uneducated head will spin right off.

            And no one except you, an obvious science denier, is claiming that an embryo is an infant.

    • Unicorn Farm

      “Because rather or not you want to give birth, you can’t just do away with it.”

      Yes I can. Rather (sic) or not I want to give birth is really relevant. The fact that you like the idea of forcing women to give birth against their wills makes me sick.

      “That’s a human being inside you.”

      Big f***ing deal.

      “People advocating women’s rights don’t realize that yes women can control their body, but that baby inside them is not “their body.”

      Oh, I realize 100% that the fetus isn’t my body. But it’s connected with my body and MY BODY IS GESTATING. I get to control whether my body gestates and who uses it. So that fetus has to GTFO when I say it has to. Deal with it.

      “If you don’t want that baby all you have to do is give it up for adoption.”

      All I have to do? ALL I have to do is just give it up for adoption? Wait, don’t i have to gestate and give birth first? I can’t give a fetus up for adoption can I? Do you even understand the concept of pregnancy? Your perception of this entire issue is woefully juvenile. Maybe you should refrain from telling other people how to handle their pregnancies because you have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • Blue Orion

    Yeah, that “location” pretty much changes everything. You don’t get to live inside of another person without their ongoing consent. We do not owe others our bodies. And mental capacity means a lot to people. There is a reason that most people don’t care about the human welfare of beetles, but they care about the welfare of dolphins and foxes.

    Hint: It’s the brain and it’s ability to think and comprehend suffering. A zygote has no brain, and is less sentient than a beetle. Genes don’t count for s**t unless they are expressed. Zygotes do not suffer if they don’t implant, any more than a destroyed yeast cell suffers.

    A pregnant adult woman, however, is a thinking, sentient and SAPIENT being, able to think, feel, and suffer. Her welfare and rights should come before any being that cannot suffer or suffer as much. And even if a zygote, somehow was magically, mystically able to think, reason, and suffer, they still have no right to another human’s body. Nobody does.

    • Paul

      With your reasoning, would it be ok to kill someone in a coma? They fit all the criteria you described for a zygote. How about a 9th month abortion? Is it OK as long as it has not come out of the womb? Maybe after, as I would guess they still fit your standards for consciousness

      • Jennifer Starr

        There’s no such thing as a ninth-month abortion.

      • Blue Orion

        If no one comes to claim a person in a coma and the hospital determine the person cannot be revived, the plug is pulled. Same with a person in a vegetative state. You actually don’t get to live at the expense of others. Comatose and vegetative people are treated somewhat differently in that they usually have family that can be deferred to. They were (and may still be) wanted. An unwanted embryo, is unwanted and living at the expensive of another person. That person has the right to abort that embryo.

        Also, a zygote does not have a brain that is temporarily indisposed. It literally has NO BRAIN. It has no history and life worthy of any note. A 40 year old man in a coma may have a family, job, etc that depends on him, and he may be able to understand what is going on around him because he actually does have a brain. A vegetative person has none of that. If they are kept alive, it is at the expense and request of people willing to pay for it who WANT to keep that person alive.

        And also, and most importantly–NO ONE IS KEEPING A COMATOSE PERSON HOOKED UP TO ANOTHER LIVING HUMAN. That’s a pretty big fucking difference.

        And also, who is doing ninth month abortions? Virtually no one, unless extreme disorders are going on. Most women would simply wait a week to give birth if they realized they were pregnant at the last minute or do a C-section.

      • night porter

        Are coma patients a microscopic single cell?

      • TheDingus

        Is the patient living inside of and because of another person? Then, yes. If not, then no.

        This ain’t rocket science. It’s not our fault you folks literally cannot see women.

      • HeilMary1

        Coma patients aren’t inside of OTHER bodies and causing lethal damage to those hosts. Are you that stupid?

      • Nicko Thime

        Stupid like yours can’t be fixed. But that doesn’t stop us from trying.

  • Ella Warnock

    Why would we do that?

  • Jennifer Starr

    The uterus is more than just a location, Ashley. And anyone can take care of a baby once it is born, but only the woman can be pregnant. And if you want to adopt, there are plenty of foster children available through adoptus.org. Of course they’re not all cute white newborns, but they are kids who need homes. That is what adoption is all about, right? No one is required to stay pregnant just because you want a newborn.

  • Jennifer Starr

    My, aren’t you just sweetness and light./snark

  • Ella Warnock

    Don’t have sex, huh? That’s your whole argument. The millions of people in the world who don’t want a baby should just stop humping right this minute. Ever heard of ‘birth control’ or ‘contraception,’ Ashley? Google it, if you like. Totally makes sex without babies possible!

    Now that you’re armed with this new and astounding knowledge, go forth in ignorance no more. Carpe the damn diem, Ashley!

    p.s. No woman with an unwanted pregnancy owes you a baby just because you can’t make your own.

  • Michael Richard

    Vote yes on measure 1 in North Dakota. Those against measure 1 are completely uninformed, unenlightened pro abortion fanatics from out of state who have not followed the conversation in North Dakota about this measure for the last year. Measure 1 does not ban abortion unfortunately, and It cant. It does not and can not hinder end of life care, and has absolutely no effect on birth control whatsoever. What it does do is protect laws and regulations currently passed by North Dakota law makers and voters which regulate the abortion industry within the state and protects said laws from from being overturned by a single federal judge who simply doesn’t like the laws. It allows the laws to go forth and fairly challange the limits of Roe v Wade. If the laws are later struck down by the Supreme Court, it will only strengthen the pro abortion side, so there is nothing to worry about. However, lawyers and lobbyists on the pro abortion side are scared of allowing the laws to go forward and test Constitutional restrictions on Roe V Wade precisely because these laws ARE Constitutional, which is why they are trying to ratchet up fear and misinformation about measure 1 now in a desperate attempt to squash it while it can still be squashed. Nobody is fooling this North Dakota voter. Go ahead and send me your hate and venom…I love that.

    • lady_black

      If all this is true, why should anyone vote “yes” on this?

      • Michael Richard

        To protect other established North Dakota laws from simply being tossed out by a federal judge which will thereby allow a fair challange of the limits of Roe v Wade Within the court system. And yes, any North Dakotan who is concerned about the cost of fighting in court over these laws should probably be against passing measure 1 because court battles will ensue. But I am not concerned about that. North Dakota is a very wealthy state and I feel its worth the cost to try.

        • lady_black

          You DO realize that just because your state constitution says “X” doesn’t mean it can’t be overturned by a federal judge. Right sweetheart? I mean, the US Constitution is still the supreme law of the land. And N.D. is still part of the USA last time I checked. Your support of a nonsensical statement being added to your state constitution does nothing to “protect” anything. I’ll go ahead and assume N.D. schools don’t teach civics and haven’t for a very long time. And you have elected a bunch of grifters who saw you coming. If you guys like being fleeced by your politicians, far be it from me to object. However, let’s not play with each other. That’s EXACTLY what’s going on here.

          • Michael Richard

            I will go ahead and assume you also have never taken a course in civics either, or a course in anything for that matter. You see, if measure 1 passes it will back up other already established North Dakota laws on this matter which will give it more weight when fighting further court battles over this issue within the state of North Dakota. Why else do suppose pro life groups would throw money at this and why else would it be proposed by law makers? You’re out of your league here sweetheart, but nice try.

          • lady_black

            NOPE. Your lawmakers have something in mind, but it’s not what you claim. If it were as easy as just adding language to your constitution, think of how wealthy North Dakota could REALLY be. Why, you could re-instate slavery and indentured servitude. Fill prisons with debtors and make them work off their debts. Look. If you want to be taken seriously, first learn to spell. It’s challenge. Not “challange.” Second, you’re talking to someone who did study law, so NO, I’m not out of my league. YOU ARE. Laws do not “back up” other laws. If it’s unconstitutional, it’s unconstitutional. No matter how many times you repeat it. And a federal judge can throw it out. If one wishes to challenge Roe, one brings a case. Make a case that women do NOT have full citizen rights, and that others are entitled to use their bodies without consent. Good luck with that. Or try to show how you are personally harmed when your neighbor aborts her pregnancy. Good luck with that too. And DO NOT ask me why liars lie, and expect me to explain what you already know. They lie because that’s what liars do best. I don’t know what the powers that be have in mind with this initiative. I’m not in their heads. But I know the difference between chicken shit and chicken salad. You’re being scammed.

          • Michael

            I don’t need to show that I personally am affected by my neighbor having abortion because my neighbor having abortion affects another living member of the human species…the aborted human. It is a biological fact that the unborn human is human, and is living. Unenlightened people like yourself are against human rights and prefer to choose who you feel qualifies for human rights protections rather than applying human rights to any and all living members of the human species.

            You say “if its unconstitutional its unconstitutional.”

            LOL. I can tell you have never taken a single course in constitutional law while you “studied law.” You see, the US Constitution is completely open to interpretation. This is how one Supreme Court Justice may say abortion is not protected by the Constitution (as do at least three current Supreme court Justices) and another Justice may say it is. This is why one Supreme Court may use the Constitution to defend slavery and segregation and another Court might use the Constitution to strike down slavery and segregation. If you, as one who has “studied law” can’t understand how enshrining law in a state constitution doesn’t lend legal force, I submit that you have never studied anything…let alone law.

          • night porter

            I’m human. This means that I can take your bone marrow without your consent should my life depend upon it yes?

          • Michael

            Unless raped, there WAS consent. Therefore, if I willingly agree to partake in a procedure or activity which removes my bone marrow and gives it to you, then yes, you may take my bone marrow. Likewise, if a woman engages willingly in sexual intercourse she accepts the potential outcome of the activity/procedure which may lead her to become pregnant. After all, if a female “chooses” birth, the male is usually obligated BY LAW to accept responsibility of the “procedure or activity” (sexual intercourse) which allowed the pregnancy to occur, and is forced to care for or provided care for the child. So too, should the female need to take legal responsibility for her actions. You believe in equal rights, yes?

          • night porter

            Nope. Consent to sex is no more consent to pregnancy than skiing is consent to a broken leg.

            Do you support a rape exception?

          • Michael

            Unfortunately we are not talking about the possible ramifications of going skiing, nor comparing a broken leg to the killing of a human life. Were talking about a activity or procedure which DEFINITELY leads to a dead human life. That far outweighs the importance any activity or procedure which MAY lead to a broken leg. This is why you need enlightenment. If a man breaks in to my house and threatens me with a gun, do you support a self defense exception to murder? Two can play that idiotic game.

          • night porter

            Moving the goalposts now I see.

            And should a woman be permitted an abortion if she has been raped? Yes or no.

          • Michael

            You’re telling me you weren’t honestly able to deduce my answer to that from my last post? Apparently you don’t wish to continue the relevant conversation, but would rather set up some lame one liner. No actual rebuttal to my last post? Strike three, you’re out.

          • night porter

            What I would like is a straight answer. Are you not interested in honest debate?

          • Michael

            You realize of course that you could have legitimately said: “you apparently believe abortion is acceptable in the case of rape, so…” and went on with your point, thereby avoiding this humongous waste of time. Second question: Yes an honest debate would be great, but the “debate” has been completely one sided (me,) you ask questions, I answer them, you get side-tracked.

          • night porter

            Right. So you don’t believe that all fetuses have an intrinsic right to life?

          • Michael

            So I am not consistent with some pro lifers, sue me. I guess I’m truly open minded, what can I say? Why don’t I get to ask any questions here? I’m a business owner. Do I have the right to kill a thief who shoplifts my property in order to retrieve my property and thereby, “protect” my property rights?

          • night porter

            Is a fetus created through rape less valuable than one created through consentual sex?

          • Michael

            I can see this is going nowhere. Is the life of a thief less valuable than the life of a non thief when considering the protection of property rights? Well, You’ve definitely bored me sleepy. Its 1:15am here, I’m going to bed. Maybe I will check this thread later.

          • night porter

            So you are all about punishing women for having sex, and don’t actually care about fetal life. Thought so.

          • fiona64

            Of course he is. And really, he wants to punish women who won’t have sex with HIM but will with others. Ho hum.

          • HeilMary1

            Whether an invited guest or burglar threatens your life, you are entitled to self-defense. Same with women being threatened with bankrupting and deadly pelvic floor disorders. You sadistically pretend that pregnancies are nothing more than 2 week colds with extra boxes of kleenex. My best friend was gruesomely murdered by face-rotting skin cancer triggered by her two daughters. Of course her husband, LIKE YOU, dumped her and got away with molesting one of the daughters. All pregnancies are damaging to women’s bodies. All pregnancies cost $5,000 to $5,000,000 here in the U.S. and you fetal idolaters whine about health care costs.

          • Arekushieru

            Well, you people certainly seem to think that the life of the thief is less valuable than the life of a non-thief. After all, you don’t think the thief (rapist) has a right to life but you DO think that the life of the non-thief (fetus in an unwanted pregnancy) deserves a right to life. What? So many contradictions, now that you’re unable to keep track of them all? Sorry, but that’s not OUR problem.

          • HeilMary1

            Women have the right to defend their most essential property: their OWN bodies against gruesome pregnancy injuries.

          • fiona64

            How is it that so many anti-choicers come in here claiming to be business owners? I guess you all do Amway or some such.

            It’s become a joke.

          • Arekushieru

            You are not only not consistent but an OBVIOUS misogynist because of it. You don’t want to protect the life of the fetus. You simply want to punish women for having consensual, non-procreative sex. SICKENING.

          • Arekushieru

            Obviously don’t know how laws work either. Also, the most precious property is your own body, comparing a woman’s body to your building is an even more egregious form of misogyny. Sicko.

          • lady_black

            No. You cannot shoot a shoplifter in any state. But you DO have the right to kill to defend your body. Bodies and property are two different things.

          • TheDingus

            Here’s an honest question: if you have the right to defend your own property even if it kills someone, why on earth would women not have the right to defend their own bodies (and property: being pregnant, giving birth, and raising a child is neither free nor cheap) even if it “kills” some body?

            Especially if it isn’t “killing” any one? Deciding not to give life is not the same as killing. If you have both your kidneys, does that make you the killer of one of the 12 people who died of renal failure today?

          • night porter

            In the pro-life state of Texas you can shoot an intruder who is trying to abscond with your tv.

          • HeilMary1

            TVs and fetuses have more value in Texas than adult women.

          • Shan

            “I guess I’m truly open minded, what can I say?”

            Is it really open minded to support the legal killing of humans who were conceived by rape?

          • fiona64

            You’re risible.

          • TheDingus

            You refusing to answer a very simple question is what’s caused “this humongous waste of time.”

          • HeilMary1

            No, you’re out, mother killer.

          • HeilMary1

            Monster you supports fetuses triggering fatal strokes, organ failures, cancers, sepsis, autoimmune diseases, spousal abuse and bankruptcies in women. You are criminally ignorant of pregnancy complications.

          • Arekushieru

            Pregnancy is the third leading cause of death for women, worldwide. By the time complications ACTUALLY arise, it is too late for the woman and THUS the fetus. Oops?

            And the analogy is correct, because we know what the actual similarities are, you, apparently, do not.

            Murder, rape and forced gestation are the same. Thus, you can kill your rapist, the one who attempts to murder you, etc… and STILL not be charged with murder. How simple was THAT?

            So ignorant of what you’re imposing on women, although knowing that you will never be forced to face those consequences, yet so willing to argue based on such little knowledge.

          • TheDingus

            The anti-choice commence their control of women’s bodies a few minutes after and a few centimeters further in than a rapist does, but they want the very same control as the rapist, for much longer.

          • Arekushieru

            (CN: Rape discussion, possible insensitivity to rape victims):

            ……………………………………………………………………………………………….

            I quite often argue that, since rape isn’t nearly of the same continuous duration as a pregnancy, both of those involved in rape are INARGUABLY persons unlike pregnancy AND it doesn’t have nearly the same physical complications to BOTH one’s health and life, itself, as pregnancy does, by ANTI-CHOICE logic rape victims should be denied the right to use lethal force. Although I very rarely use that argument, at all, since it’s not unreasonably offensive to rape victims.

          • night porter

            I use that same argument.

          • lady_black

            The law DOES make an exception for homicide committed in self-defense. And as we all saw in the Trayvon Martin case, one need not actually be in imminent danger of dying to exercise this right. Abortion is self-defense. A woman need not wait passively until she is actively dying to get an abortion. There’s no way to tell in advance, which pregnancy will go horribly wrong, and which one won’t. Women still choose to carry to term, and give birth. They know they are assuming that risk and do so because they want a baby, or for other reasons of their own. Someone who doesn’t wish to assume that risk from the get-go cannot be FORCED to assume that risk.

          • TheDingus

            No, it doesn’t lead to a “dead human life.” It leads to a new human life not being created. Just like you masturbating into a tissue does.

          • catseye

            Consent to sex is no more consent to pregnancy than consent to a DATE is consent to SEX.

          • Ella Warnock

            One of the potential outcomes of pregnancy is abortion.

          • Michael

            Legally, yes it CURRENTLY is. Ethically it shouldn’t be. One of the potential outcomes of driving a car is death. That doesn’t justify someone legally taking the life of other humans who might be driving.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, it will always be legal somewhere and certainly accessible for any woman with resources.

            Driving is a poor comparison to pregnancy. I’ve always found that analogy absurd.

          • Michael

            I’m not actually comparing pregnancy to driving. That’s a false accusation of false equivalence on your part. If I had wanted to compare pregnancy to driving I might have said something like “pregnancy is similar to driving because…” and then given a reason. That’s not what I did. But nice try.

          • Ella Warnock

            If it isn’t relevant to you, then simply refrain from mentioning it. Should be easy enough.

          • Michael

            The relevant point was that of the LEGALITY and JUSTIFICATION of said actions such as killing humans who are driving, or killing unborn humans, not of the actual actions of “driving” or “abortions.”

          • Ella Warnock

            Ah, then, it is relevant after all. Well, either way, you sound quite certain of your position(s).

            Getting back on-topic, abortion is legal and no ‘justification’ is necessary. Illegality only succeeds in rearranging, not removing the undesired behavior. Women with resources and women aided by those with resources will easily circumvent anti-abortion laws. It was ever thus.

          • Michael

            Wrong. As Lincoln once said about slavery: (Not a direct quote) “If the people regard slavery as acceptable, then no justification is necessary. However, if the people regard slavery is immoral, then no justification is acceptable.” Something like that.

            The same goes for abortion.

            Also, many things still occur that are illegal. Things like rape, murder, theft, etc. The fact that something is going to happen anyway is not a justification to condone the behavior in question,

            This time I’m really going to bed. Good night.

          • Ella Warnock

            What, yet another defiant rejoinder? Why, I thought I’d been ‘properly taken care of’ already. Sadly, it seems your work is never done.

            At any rate, if you are indeed ‘really going to bed now,’ then lailah tov.

          • Michael

            LOL. Erev Tov.

          • HeilMary1

            Abortion is to women what guns are to men being assaulted by muggers. Having a wallet in one’s pocket is no invitation for mugging. Having sex with one’s partner is no invitation for bladder and bowel incontinence caused by fetal expulsion. You’d dump any such afflicted brood mare faster than Hugh Hefner trades up blondes.

          • Arekushieru

            No, wrong. I thought we were talking about equal rights, here? It’s what YOU said, after all. Justification for abortion and anti-slavery operate on the same principle, equal rights, NOT morality. Whoops?

          • fiona64

            AND NO, I AM NOT COMPARING SLAVERY TO ABORTION.

            Good, because the forced pregnancy for which you advocate is far more analogous to slavery.

          • night porter

            Forced reproduction was an aspect of slavery FYI.

          • TheDingus

            You might have a point if all people could be forced to agree with you that deciding not to have a baby is immoral. For many people, deciding not to have a baby is perfectly moral. In fact, given the current state of life on this planet, to have babies as mindlessly as rabbits is what is immoral. We’re killing half the living beings of the Earth by our wanton, mindless ways. How is that moral? More than 20,000 born children will die today because the resources to care for them are not available: how is that moral?

            There is a corollary to slavery: you propose using women’s bodies for some one else against their will, and without the slightest compensation. How is using a person’s body against their will, for the benefit of another, without compensation, anything other than slavery? Why is such slavery morally acceptable to you?

          • lady_black

            Well, Lincoln had a problem, didn’t he? Not everyone agreed with him that slavery was immoral. You fail to understand that rhetoric isn’t reality. A bloody civil war was required to end the practice of slavery. Are you willing to go so far as to kill breathing people to “save” non-breathing humans? Then you have another problem. A slave is visible to all. Pregnancy isn’t. You can’t tell by looking at a woman whether she’s pregnant or not. Or whether she’s using an “abortifacient” IUD or not. (I know an IUD is not abortifacient, but some people believe it is). Let me tell you something. It’s SO EASY to extract an overdue period, it’s not even funny. Drugs exist now that didn’t exist in the early 70s that make it so much easier. Half the time we won’t even need a Del-em, but it’s easy enough to build one if it’s needed.

          • Ella Warnock

            You’ve been properly taken care of.

            Now that prompted a proper belly laugh. You’re a funny one, Michael.

          • Michael

            LOL. Shucks. Agree to disagree.

          • TheDingus

            We will, the minute you folks stop trying to pass laws forcing us to agree. MMMmmmkay?

          • lady_black

            You couldn’t take care of a warm cup of piss, drunk. Legal killing is legal killing. We don’t care if you don’t like abortion, Michael. You’ll never need one. All you’re doing is babbling. If you want to make an analogy about driving, driving is like having sex. People choose to do both. There are risks involved in both. But we don’t tell you “live with your shattered leg, because you chose to drive and had an accident.” You don’t tell us “live with your unwanted pregnancy because you chose to have sex and had an accident.”

          • TheDingus

            We also don’t force people to drive against their will. Michael here just refuses to accept that he wants to force direct physical harm, even the risk of death, on women, against their will.

          • HeilMary1

            Your underage rent child just arrived. Hope you get arrested.

          • Arekushieru

            Actually, YES, the relevant justification would be receiving medical treatment after an accident, since abortion is receiving medical treatment after (the majority of the time) an accident or rather failure of contraception. So, YES, you ARE moving goalposts. TBSVFS.

          • fiona64

            You’ve been properly taken care of.

            I’ll give you this much, little man: you have a rich fantasy life. Your ass has been kicked into the middle of next week, and you imagine that *you* have disposed of the arguments here?

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • lady_black

            Abortion always HAS been a possible outcome of pregnancy, and always will be, regardless of laws. That’s the concept you seem not to get. A woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant will find a way to get rid of it. And there’s nothing you can do about it. You won’t even KNOW about it. Jane will rise again, and this time we have drugs that will make it so much easier.

          • HeilMary1

            You want sex to always be disfiguring, disabling, deadly and bankrupting to women. Should “cheating” insulin be banned for sinfully gluttonous diabetics as well? Should cancer treatments be banned for sinful, self-indulgent smokers? Should emergency surgery be banned for careless drivers? That’s your disgusting logic.

          • Arekushieru

            Ethically, abortion SHOULD be legal for any reason whatsoever at any stage of development whatsoever, for there to be equal rights.

          • fiona64

            Ethically abortion shouldn’t be a legal potential outcome under most circumstances.

            Let’s just pretend for a moment that you get your wish and abortion is made illegal again (that was only the case for about 70 years in this country, BTW). How long should women go to jail for if they terminate an unwanted and/or dangerous pregnancy?

          • TheDingus

            We’re not discussing a law. We’re discussing rights.

            The actual laws that were struck down were those prohibiting abortion. Why? Because the right to be secure in your person, free from unwarranted search and seizure, and the rights to equal protection under law, and to due process of law before being stripped of life, liberty or property, are rights women have, equally with men. Furthermore, women born or naturalized in the US are US citizens and States may not abridge their rights without due process, nor can they make or enforce ANY law that abridges the privileges or immunities of US citizens. Furthermore, a right, privilege or immunity does not have to be enumerated in the Constitution to exist, but a governmental authority does.

            There are only two basis for the argument that rights should not apply to women, and they’re both very bad. One, the US Constitution doesn’t apply to half the citizens of the United States, or, two, women are not “persons.” Which side do you come down on?

          • Shan

            “the current legal status of a law should not be used to justify said law.”

            But it does require justification for overturning it. What would be your justification for making abortion illegal and under what circumstances?

          • lady_black

            Consent to sex is not a contract to gestate. You are talking about two totally different things. BOTH parents have rights and responsibilities as respects a child. A child has been born. Neither have parental rights or responsibilities prior to birth. We do not force men OR women to parent, before or after birth. See adoption and safe haven laws. The male’s role in reproduction ends at orgasm. The woman has a much heavier lift. She need not go through with it. He’s finished, then SHE can also be finished at her earliest convenience.

          • HeilMary1

            Then you also accept being jailed or even executed if the pregnancies you sire cause grievous injuries and deaths to your conquests! Castration would be even better because that would be on par with grisly childbirth injuries and symphysiotomies forced on petite women in Ireland to avoid “sinful, contraceptive” c-sections.

          • Arekushieru

            Yes, we believe in equal rights, you do not. YOU believe in forcing a woman to remain pregnant, therefore WE believe that you should be forced to donate bone marrow against your wishes. THAT is equal rights. The FACT is that the products of homogamete functions should NOT require a woman to take more responsibility for her biology than men. THAT is misogyny. NOT equal rights. The woman is required to pay alimony just like a MAN is, when the Father gains custody of the children. AND the woman is more often required to provide care for children in her sole or dual custody roles and the one who DOES regularly have sole custody is required to provide FAR more support, not only financially, than the non-custodial parent. So boo-fucking-hoo.

          • fiona64

            Unless raped, there WAS consent.

            Yet another dumbfuck who thinks that consent to sex is consent to gestation.

            So too, should the female need to take legal responsibility for her actions.

            And guess what, Sparky? Having an abortion is taking “legal responsibility for her actions.” You don’t get to make medical decisions for anyone other than yourself.

            Your MRAsshole nonsense is duly noted; you’ve exposed yourself for what you truly are: an angry little boy with mommy issues.

          • TheDingus

            Gad, you people: it’s unbelievable, the nonsense you spout.

            For the man, consent to sex is consent to perform his entire role in reproduction, the provision of a gamete. The provision of a gamete is the beginning of the woman’s role, not the entirety of it. For the man, consent to sex IS consent to reproduce. For the woman consent to sex is not consent to being pregnant for 40 weeks and having a baby, it’s consent to have sex. The male is obligated by law because he did indeed agree to reproduce. Pretending that women’s role in reproduction is exactly the same as men’s is literally crazy.

            “if a woman engages willingly in sexual intercourse she accepts the
            potential outcome of the activity/procedure which may lead her to become
            pregnant.” One of the potential outcomes is ending the pregnancy. This is true whether you like it or not, or whether your criminalize it or not. Women who don’t want to be pregnant stop being pregnant all over this world; the only issue is, will you deliberately make it difficult and dangerous, or not? In the US, deliberately making abortion difficult and dangerous has been found to deny women both due process and equal protection under law. You’re punishing women without due process: you’re stripping them of their right to be secure in their person and seizing their bodies without a warrant or a trial; you’re stripping them of their liberty and property, and some of their very lives, without due process, and doing so based solely on the fact that they’re female. That is unequal protection.

            Women and men both have the equal right to decline to perform their role in reproduction. You just want the extra special right to perform your role and then pretend you didn’t.

          • HeilMary1

            The antis believe that dinner guests of male hosts must leave after dinner and not trash the place on their way out. They believe the opposite for female hosts — that guests can crash and trash the place for months, bankrupt the hostess, and beat, slice and poison her to death.

          • catseye

            I suppose it’s waaayyyy too much to expect a bunch of mental and moral imbeciles who can’t differentiate between consensual and forced SEXUAL ACTIVITY to be able to distinguish between consensual and forced BIRTH.

          • lady_black

            There’s no mention of marriage in the US Constitution, either. Only a fool would argue that the Constitution DOESN’T protect a citizen’s right to marriage. The Constitution is not a laundry list. See the ninth amendment. In Griswold and Eisenstadt, the SCOTUS held that states cannot prohibit the use of contraceptives. The holdings in both cases are that some areas of life are too personal for the government to intrude upon. In Roe and Doe, the SCOTUS held that women have a right to abort a pregnancy. In Casey, the SCOTUS ruled that the right to abortion cannot be unduly burdened. “Enshrining” a law in the state constitution protects a law from STATE challenges. It means nothing to a federal court if it violates the US Constitution. Several states have had their constitutional amendments against same sex marriage overturned. And it shouldn’t matter what a justice’s “personal” views on abortion are. I agree right now we are stuck with three embarrassments to the bench. That’s not enough to do anything. And YES, to overturn Roe, it would take a show of personal harm. You have no standing to challenge Roe. “Human beings” do not have the right to use other human beings as organic life-support systems. Therefore, there is no “protection” for them. I’m a human being. I cannot insist that you breathe for me. The fetal “me” had no rights that the “me” of today doesn’t have. And YES, you DID spell challenge as challange.

          • HeilMary1

            No woman owes you pedophiles the shredding of her vital organs just to restock your victim supply.

          • HeilMary1

            ALL abortions are medical SELF-DEFENSE against thousands of grisly complications. Take your pedophilia to some other planet.

          • Arekushieru

            Wrong. The same principle applies when opposing slavery as it does when supporting legal abortion. When someone opposes both slavery and abortion, that’s purely cognitive dissonance. Tbss.

          • fiona64

            Yet another one who thinks he is very clever by conflating human DNA with personhood.

            Yet another person who is wrong.

          • HeilMary1

            The pedophile Vatican does have unlimited funds from its womb trafficking crime syndicate.

          • fiona64

            Why else do suppose pro life groups would throw money at this

            Because anti-choicers want to pretend they’re all about “protecting women” when what you’re really about is misogyny.

            You’re out of your league here sweetheart,

            Oh yes, little man. You are indeed out of your league.

        • HeilMary1

          We’re not incubating slaves for pedophile priests. This isn’t Ireland or El Salvador.

        • fiona64

          Yep, keep on showing us how easy it is to be an anti-choice male, Michael. Rock on.

        • TheDingus

          “To protect other established North Dakota anti abortion laws from simply being tossed out by a federal judge…”

          Applying Constitutional rights to women is indeed simple. Well, except to Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia, and his lap dog Thomas, for whom stripping American women of their Constitutional rights is an actual goal.

          If you want to toss the Constitution, you’ve got quite an uphill climb, my friend. Sorry all your propaganda efforts have been met with resistance from people who can’t quite shed their belief that women are people with rights.

          A “fair” challenge to Roe v Wade? The only challenge any of us has seen in 40 years, is basically “Whaaaaa! I don’t believe in abortion, therefore no one should be able to get one!”

        • fiona64

          I just re-read this. You have a real problem with the concept that women are people, don’t you?

    • HeilMary1

      You spoiled pedophiles just can’t traffic enough wombs for your selfish perversions.

    • fiona64

      It is so easy to be an anti-choice male, isn’t it, Michael? You just wave your paw in the air and act as if it is no big deal for women to be forced to risk life and health due to gestation (pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness), knowing full well that you will NEVER be affected by the things that you support.

      Pretty damned convenient, eh?

      And if this is just an additional layer to “protect” already existing laws, why is it needed at all?

      Your rhetoric is pretty transparent, sweetie, and the smart people are not buying what you’re sellingd.

    • Arekushieru

      No such thing as pro-abortionists. We are not anti-choice like you. No such thing as an abortion ‘industry’ either. If there is an industry, at all, that would apply to your CPCs and your adoption trafficking industries. ‘Fairly’ challenge Roe vs Wade? That means laws could ‘fairly’ challenge anti-slavery laws by those who would not be unduly burdened by the removal of such laws (since you ARE an anti-choice male who has no skin in the game, WHATSOEVER, that is ‘proclaiming’ these things).

  • Paul
    • Jennifer Starr

      Needs car chases.

      • Ella Warnock

        And pyrotechnics.

      • fiona64

        And possibly Gerard Butler.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Oh yes, Gerard Butler would be awesome.

        • Ella Warnock

          Definitely!

          • night porter
          • Ella Warnock
          • night porter

            Aw, you’re a Cumberbitch:P

            I do believe that fiona likes him as well.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yup, proudly. ;->

          • fiona64

            Not so much; my other crush (besides Gerry) is this hot hunk of Persian-born Canadian yumminess. http://raminkarimloo.com/

            I drove 700 miles round trip to see his bluegrass band play in a small venue, and I flew to Toronto to see him play Jean Valjean. I can also tell you from personal experience that he is just as nice as he is handsome, and gives great hugs.

          • night porter

            Just googled him too…he is very good looking!

            And a Canadian!

          • fiona64

            Yep. From Peterborough, Ontario.

          • night porter

            ED routinely asks to move the conversations to FB. I wonder why. I suspect that she doesn’t like being called on her bullshit out in public.

          • fiona64

            I suspect the same thing.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes bonus points for being Canadian. He is yummy.

          • night porter

            Persian men, and women, are very beautiful, with the exception of the Ayotollah, heheh

          • expect_resistance

            Yes.

          • expect_resistance

            The conversation at LAN has devolved into Calvin telling me I’m bad blah blah blah. I asked if I get a spanking for being bad. Im being sacastic and rude. Flew over his head.

          • night porter

            He is hysterical.

          • fiona64

            Calvin separates women into two groups: his sycophants, and the women he can’t control.

            Any woman he can’t control is automatically bad.

            Calvin is laughable. And probably drives a giant SUV to compensate for something.

          • HeilMary1

            Is he possibly James O’Keefe?

          • goatini

            Or as Alan Colmes calls him, “former Dildo Boat Captain”

          • expect_resistance

            He’s for sure compensating about something. I’ve offered him advice about sex and how to use a condom at LAN. I’m sure his brain is short circuiting. I’m just trying to share knowledge with him. I’m sure he still thinks I’m evil. Oh well.

          • expect_resistance

            He’s hot and he plays bluegrass. I’m impressed.

    • fiona64

      ::yawn::

  • Arekushieru

    Of course, why NOT? After all, it’s not like innocent people get sent to jail at any one time, right? Right?

  • HeilMary1

    Fact: Measure 1 was drafted by pedophile priests, wife killers, and their cheated-on useful fool brood mares. Fetal idolaters’ biggest fear is that the public will learn of childbirth’s deadly commonplace injuries like incontinence and cancers, and that women will be jailed even for miscarriages. ND will become an El Salvador Magdalen laundry overnight.

  • HeilMary1

    You lying mother killers also oppose ALL contraception and sterilization, and pretend that people marry to practice abstinence only. By your pregnancy logic, once burglars are in your home, they have a right to loot and murder as they please.

  • VikingRN

    Sex is a source of joy for humans. Responsible people use contraception. It is a true disconnect to oppose contraception when it is the one known way to prevent the use of abortion.

    I am sorry that you have a fertility problem.

  • TheDingus

    “Size?” That’s it? Don’t you think having fully formed organs that spontaneously function to maintain life has something to do with it? Or do you think men inject tiny fully formed “babies” into women’s stomachs, where they just get bigger?

    Women are “locations” and “environments,” not people? It’s like you think wombs are magic incubators floating in space attached to no one and nothing.

    Delusional.

  • lady_black

    So you are admitting that you back an unconstitutional law that will do *nothing.* Yet you make all sorts of crazy claims about what this will accomplish in another comment.

  • lady_black

    After a ridiculously short labor (under 3 hours), I witnessed the birth of my first grandson, Thomas Connor, at 0050 this morning. Mother and baby are doing great. Grandma is exhausted, but over the moon.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Congratulations, Grandma!

    • Jennifer Starr

      Congratulations :)

    • Sydney

      Congrats!

    • Ella Warnock

      Wonderful news, LB!

    • TheDingus

      Congratulations!

    • fiona64

      Congratulations all the way around!

    • night porter

      Grats!!!

    • expect_resistance

      congratulations! Can we call you “granny” now? Just kidding :)
      I’m so happy for you and your family! Big hugs and many congrats!!!

      • lady_black

        LOL. I’ve been a granny for a long time. Actually it’s Nanny. I have 4 granddaughters. This is my first grandson.

        • expect_resistance

          Congrats again! Cheers to Thomas!

    • HeilMary1

      Awwwe! Congrats!

    • catseye

      Yaaaaaayyyy! Congrats on the new grandbaby.

    • expect_resistance

      Sorry I couldn’t post this sooner. My comments are still at LAN. Surprised they have’t been deleted. When I tried to post a response I got a message I was banned and couldn’t post. Here’s a few posts and links of the conversation.

      https://disqus.com/home/discussion/liveactionnews/one_couples_heartbreaking_tale_of_miscarriage_gives_contrast_to_abortion#comment-1656604158

      “Calvin it’s clear you are an overbearing misogynistic control freak that wants to punish women with forced gestation for having sex. I will have awesome mind blowing sex with orgasms and use birth control and abort as I see fit. You get NO say. In addition you are a pompous windbag and have no idea what you are talking about. Get laid and then come back with actual facts.”

      https://disqus.com/home/discussion/liveactionnews/one_couples_heartbreaking_tale_of_miscarriage_gives_contrast_to_abortion#comment-1655872485

      “I don’t fear facts. Calvin you’re going to have to get over the fact you can’t control women. I can tell this frustrates you that you can’t just pound your fist and get your way. Any woman you can’t control you deem as a bad person. Someday you’ll grow up an become an adult and hopefully by then you will understand the intricacies and complexities of life, not everything is black and white good or bad. I wish you luck. Bye bye.”

      https://disqus.com/home/discussion/liveactionnews/one_couples_heartbreaking_tale_of_miscarriage_gives_contrast_to_abortion#comment-1656758995

      “Yes try it you might like it. If you don’t that’s okay too. It’s not like your member will shrivel up from it. Wear a condom or get a bj, or at least jerk one off. It’s healthy to release sperm. God is not going to damn you to hell for waxing one off once and a while.”

    • Shan

      Sweet news!

  • TheDingus

    In legally compelled gestation, one does undo the other. The zygote usurps the rights of the woman. It literally cannot be otherwise: a zygote, embryo or fetus cannot be protected without sticking your nose inside women’s bodies, without controlling women’s bodies, and therefore their lives. Try addressing that point. (I’ll bet the farm you won’t.)

    You consistently ignore that zygotes, embryos and fetuses live inside of and because of women. We’re not talking about two separate individuals, as we would be with a man (born) and a woman (born.)

    I know what the anti-choice position is. What makes you think repeating it will make me agree with you? For example: it is not “a biological fact that you already have a child” when you become pregnant. ~50% of conceptions end as discharge on a feminine hygiene product, not children. (Look it up.) 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage. 1 in 160 pregnancies end in stillbirth. It’s a biological fact that you have a child when you give birth to a living child.

    Becoming pregnant and remaining pregnant are two different things. If you remove the right to end pregnancy, you are compelling child bearing. That’s what pregnancy is: child bearing. Getting pregnant is not child bearing; it’s having sex. Remaining pregnant is child bearing. I categorically reject your disingenuous claim not to know the difference. You want to do EXACTLY what a rapist wants to do: compel reproduction. (I have more respect for rapists; at least they do their own assaulting of other people’s bodies against their will. The anti-choice are such moral cowards you want the government to do it for you.)

    There is only one way to avoid compelled reproduction, whether by rape or by law: leave the decision whether or not to bear a child to each individual woman.

    Telling someone who is not pregnant they don’t have to be pregnant is like telling someone who has not cut themselves they don’t have to get stitches. Well, duh. The question of bearing a child is only applicable when someone is pregnant, not when they’re not. If it makes you feel better, consider that five out of six women who become pregnant choose to bear the child. Quit thinking of women as being “killers.” Most risk their lives and sacrifice themselves to child bearing without your unwanted interference. It’s not “babies” you care about, it’s controlling women.

    You think your right to privacy is “obscure?” So, the government can tell you what to do with your genitals? Something tells me you’d suddenly find a flaming bright right to privacy if it were your genitals being controlled by the government. Consider that every time you masturbate you’re denying your own potential offspring the right to live. Don’t tell me a baby doesn’t exist yet: your sperm is human, alive and critical to the creation of children. Indeed, according to you, your sperm creates a “child” just be penetrating an ovum! What’s your right to control your own body and your own future – your
    right to liberty – compared to the right to life of potential babies?

    Not to mention, we’re telling you they don’t exist yet before birth, and that women’s bodies are critical to the creation of children. You reject that argument out of hand (mostly by ignoring it). Turn about is fair play – so, the government can compel you to sire children, correct?

  • HeilMary1

    The legal and illegal abortion rates are the same all over the globe, and have been throughout human history because of childbirth dangers. Wish my abusive mom aborted me.

    • expect_resistance

      I’ve been posting at LAN and soon to get banned. Calvin is talking smack about you. I set him straight and defended you. I adore you and he can go kiss my butt.

      • fiona64

        Calvin is very angry about being unable to control women.

        • expect_resistance

          Yes. I just told him off at LAN. I feel so much better now. Someone needs to put a pinhole in his pompous over inflated self esteem. I just can’t stand how he bullies women. He’s so smug in his abuse.

      • HeilMary1

        Thanks for defending me! — I do bring out the rage in hypocrites. I’m tempted to go over there, but I’d probably get immediately banned, as I am still banned at many Catholic sites. Has Calvin posted here?

        • expect_resistance

          I’m always happy to defend you. :) you are awesome and I will not tolorate you getting insulting especially because you can’t defend yourself on a site youre banned from like LAN. Calvin and his cronies get some sick pleasure from thinking they have power and control over others. They are sadistic control freaks. I loathe and abhore that concept of power and control over others. Calvin hasn’t posted here because he can’t engage in actual conversation without being able to ban others he disagrees with. If he can’t control the conversation he’s not going to post. You have no idea how hard it’s been for me not to just tell Calvin what a piece of crap he is. That over inflated wind bag. Although I just posted to LAN and read him the riot act and gave him a piece of my mind. I would be shocked if I’m not banned now. I really don’t like posting there, is gross and creepy.

          • HeilMary1

            Actually, your earlier post prompted me to visit there, but their site keeps crashing my browser. I saw one article on Catholic women and read some lame comments. Didn’t see anything by Calvin. What thread are you referring to? Not sure if I’m up for insults, but maybe I’ll risk responding. My Discus account is banned at the sometimes liberal National Catholic Reporter, which recently had 90+ amazing comments by fed-up liberal Catholics on the recent Vatican Synod’s continuing ban on contraception. I up-voted virtually all of them, but couldn’t add my own two cents. Since I have a new IP, maybe I should try creating another Discus identity. Don’t know if that is possible.

          • expect_resistance

            I have problems with my browser crashing too. I’m usually posting from my phone unless I’m at work. I’m sorry I’ll have to check the upthread post. There are bugs and glitches with disqus comments I don’t understand. I’m not very technical with this. Purrtriarchy or night porter has been helpful with this stuff. Check with her she will have better advise. Just glad your posts are here.

  • HeilMary1

    Liar, these other banned treatments are already banned in pro-dead Catholic “hospitals.”

  • fiona64

    With those odds those of us posting here are lucky our parents were pro-life.

    Actually, my folks are pro-choice.

    So am I.

    So is my son.

  • Michael

    So I logged on to my alternate email this morning and what did I see? Six pages of responses from this site! Boy, you make a few innocent comments about abortion and all the fundamentalist old grandma’s get their flannel panties bunched in the cobwebs. I’m sorry, I don’t even have the time to read 6 pages of responses let alone respond to them. I’m a busy person. You should have been here three nights ago when I was discussing this with your friends. Besides, the first and only email I clicked was of some trite anti life goon offering the typical ad hominem approach. Something about the Vatican and pedophiles, which, perhaps if I were Christian or even religious I could have been offended. Oh, and don’t worry about measure 1 in North Dakota. It’s not going to pass. Planned Parenthood has far out spent supporters and has successfully spread its misinformation. The vast majority of pro lifers I know aren’t even voting for it. They have all cited the misinformation and lies spread by PP and articles like the one above. Oh well, at least Planned Parenthood was sucked of a million bucks. Cheers all.

    • fiona64

      TL;DR version of Michael’s post: Wah! Wah! Wah! I couldn’t control the wimmens. Wah! Wah! Wah!

    • fiona64

      TL;DR version of Michael’s post: Wah! Wah! Wah! I couldn’t control the wimmens. Wah! Wah! Wah!

    • night porter

      You couldn’t debate your way out of a wet paper bag.

      • expect_resistance

        No he couldn’t.

    • expect_resistance

      Oh boo hoo. I get lots of hate mail from forced birther anti choices.

  • Nicko Thime

    This is what happens when you let religious WHACKOES near government. They IMMEDIATELY go for totalitarian.

  • Nicko Thime

    Pile of ignorance

  • SawItComing

    Here is what I have always lived by.

    You don’t like something…DON’T DO IT!! DON’T WATCH IT!! DON’T BUY IT!!

    How hard is that?

  • Jennifer Starr

    My parents are pro-choice.

    • Shan

      So are mine. So are my kids.

  • bengal mom

    Too bad these so called informed local voted in to office holders don’t read the Bible. In Gen chapter two verse seven it tells exactly when life begins. READ IT!!!!

  • Vixpix1

    Decades after Roe v. Wade, who thought we’d still be fighting over A woman’s right to control her own body? Add the Republican war on women to the long list wars Republicans love to wage.