Plano GOP Ad Guy Wants You to Know, "Republicans Are People Too"

Some celebrities are actually Republicans, too.  Mel Gibson.  Ted Nugent.  Meat Loaf.  Wayne Newton.

I believe the Republicans need to lead in their identification ads with their issues and principles for existing in today's environment: 

1)  Sound, effective, and strong national defense

2)  Budgetary constraint and an end to non-emergency deficit spending (just lost the welfare vote)

3)  The sanctity of individual liberty and sovereign status of American citizens

4)  Greater transparency in government

5)  Lowest possible taxes

6)  Non-activist judiciary at all levels of government 

7)  Equalized rules for campaign spending for unions as well as businesses

8)  Emphasis toward LEGAL immigration, and deportation of illegal trespassers

9)  An end to election fraud

10)  A much smaller federal government, and therefore a much less expensive federal government

11)  Solid adherence to our constitution and its principles

12)   Reinforcement of our world leadership status and as an exceptional nation

@Myrna

Many more than your funny list, such as Lt. Dan, but due to the fascist nature of neo-liberalism, many must remain closeted.

The thespian community is much like the black community in that regard, step out of ideological lockstep, you've got trouble.

@bvckvs WHAT bad behavior?  You'll find most of the bad behavior in government is scored by the other party....in the extreme.

@noblefurrtexas If the Republicans actually wanted any of that to happen, I'd say run with it.  However, they 1) Think 'shock and awe' was a good military strategy; 2) Spend and waste money just as effectively as Democrats, they just call it something else.  Whatever they call it, it isn't budgetary constraint; 3) Patriot Act; 4) Patriot Act, Operation Linebacker (forerunner of Fast and Furious; 5)  Letting payroll taxes subsidize income taxes isn't really lowering taxes; 6)Are you kidding?  Just because Republican judges are activists for republican causes doesn't make them non-activists; 7)  How about a set campaign spending limit across the board.  If you're going to level the playing field, level it.  Don't just pass bigger shovels around; 8) The last time the Republicans got to handle immigration reform, we got the biggest amnesty we've ever had; 9) They'd never end something they tend to benefit from, in one way or another; 10) When is the last time a Republican shrunk the federal government? 11) Now I know you're joking; 12) Exceptional nation is getting overused.  We haven't been exceptional since the end of WWII.  In a global society and a global economy, the days of the US coming out of isolationism to administer a beat-down are done.  We must work with the world community to improve conditions the world over.  The trick is, we must do so without trampling on the rights of Americans at home.  Neither party seems to be able to accomplish this.

@noblefurrtexas

You just lost the woman vote.

@bvckvs

If bucky likes his bullshit, he can keep his bullshit.

@TheRuddSki Oh darn.  I left out the line where Republicans believe in treating men and women the same in the work place.  Unlike Obama, who pays men in the White House more than he pays women doing the same jobs, most Republicans I know don't discriminate based on gender.

@noblefurrtexas

"Unlike Obama, who pays men in the White House more than he pays women doing the same jobs"

That is not accurate from what I have read, the average pay for men and women is 13% more but men and women in the same levels are paid the same amount.

Can you prove your claim accurate?

@noblefurrtexas @TheRuddSki What is your notion of an "exceptional nation"?  Did we start out exceptional, or is that something we have to strive for and achieve before we can begin to call ourselves exceptional"? If the latter, what remains to be done??

@mavdog I don't have access to White House payrolls But, several news stations have done the story that Obama pays men more than women in the same job. 

If it wasn't truly, I would imagine the White House would hav raised Hell about it.  It does about everything else. 

It is also incredibly deceptive, and frequently covers up shortcomings with downright lies. 

@bmarvel @noblefurrtexas @TheRuddSki Few populated places or colonies have achieved independence and then created "from scratch" an entirely new government.  And, what we created had never existed before.

We were also a nation of The Rule of Law, and not the rule of men.  In fact, the central government was servant to the states and voters who had the role of "master". 

We internally freed our slaves without foreign intervention.  What's more, we enabled these people to become citizens.  

Since the revolutionary war, we have never fought a war of conquest.  In fact, we have fought wars to protect ourselves, allies, or those under threat of oppression.  We have also never gained territory through war.  

Without question, we were the leaders of the Industrial Revolution on the planet, although there was a period of enlightenment where inventions and innovations were worldwide.  However, we were the undisputed leader.

At our own expense, we fought two world wars to protect allies and defeat Germany's appetite for its neighbors while it oppressed its own people. 

Although the Soviets were the first in space, we passed them up in a flash and had the most comprehensive space exploration program in the world.  We also conceived of telescopes in space, Skylab, and were the first on the Earth to land on another celestial body.

We have had, since WWI, the strongest military in the world, and it has never been used for anything but protecting allies and liberating other countries from oppression. 

Well into the 60s, America supplied over half the goods and services in the world, and American products and expertise were widely sought after for quality. 

We are the longest standing constitutional republic in all of history.  And, we have the ability for the states and citizens to substantially change our government through amendments to that document. 

We remain a nation of liberators; not conquerors.   And, are the first with the most when other nations suffer disasters such as quakes, floods, disease, etc. 

Until recently, we were the most religious nation on the planet, and that includes Italy.  

However, that exceptionalism is being destroyed by Obama and his minions.  For reasons that should seem obvious,  he has no cultural identity with America, and seeks to ruin the country consistent with the dreams of his Muslim Communist father.  He is also our first president in history to travel the world at OUR expense, bow down to foreign rulers, and apologize worldwide for America. 

There's more, but those are off the top of my head.

@andypandy @noblefurrtexas @TheRuddSki And those were just his accountants.  :)

@noblefurrtexas

To paraphrase your response , "no, I do not have a single thread of support to back up my claim, but someone somewhere told me it was true".

You consistently put inaccurate crap out that is at best lazy and at worst deceitful.

@noblefurrtexas @bmarvel @TheRuddSki noble --

The United States was created in the same way as many other countries -- by miiitary conquest, the stronger defeating the weaker and taking possession.

The rule of law is a marvelous preserver of human rights. (I prefer the phrase "human rights" to "individual rights"; the former guarantees the common good and common order. The latter may, but sometimes does not.) Providing the laws are just. Our laws once permitted -- in fact, encouraged --slavery.

That we had slaves in the first place is proof of our unexceptionalism. That we had to resort to mutual slaughter to free them (England did not) is a national disgrace. The fact that even when we "freed" them they were not at all free, and that process of emancipation continues even today, speaks for itself.

The notion that we fight wars only-- or even mostly --  to protect others is challengeable on several counts: How often did those others ask us to fight on their behalf? What condition were they in after we fought for them? What about the many others who might have needed us to fight for them but we did not -- usually because there were no natural resources or strategic advantages for us to do so?

That American Revolution you so gloriously hail was well begun, but quickly became a war of conquest as it spread to territories belonging to other countries (France, Spain, Mexico) and to the original inhabitants of this land.    

The Industrial Revolution began in England, of course, and spread to other countries, including our own. It is a European phenomenon taken up here like so many other European phenomena -- the Enlightenment, for example -- because we were, after all, Europeans. 

We have a powerful Constitution, as Ben Franklin pointed out, only as long as we keep it. The Constitution did not instantly create liberty everywhere for all Americans. That is a process that continues today and must continue into the future. So it's much, much too early to congratulate our selves for being exceptional. We might in fact turn out to be quite unexceptional -- one more empire that rose, then fell through its own hubris. If you want to see exceptional, look at ancient Egypt, which survived 2000 years without any notion of individual rights or a practical Constitution. Or China, which has been around 4,000 years, almost all those years under governments that paid no attention whatsoever to the rights of its people. We are, by any rational measure, a drop in the bucket, a feeble, short-lived experiment. How that experiment works out is up to us.

Which brings  me to my last point: You claim that "Until recently, we were the most religious nation on the planet, and that includes Italy." I don't know why you imagine Italy is particularly religious. I would think India has the much better claim. As for us, our religion, inasmuch as we have a religion, is of a very peculiar kind, all mixed up with capitalist economics (Capitalism, getting and spending money, may be in fact the true American creed).

Most claims for American exceptionalism are based on religion. That God favors us, that we are The City on the Hill, uniquely blessed. These notions are demonstrably false. Not only that, but odious. Enrolling God in our camp is presumptuous, sacrilegious, even blasphemous. The question, noble, is not whether God is on our side. The question is whether we are on His side.

@noblefurrtexas

I'm very proud of my country, and believe it to be the gold standard in many ways....but that was a litany of nationalistic puffery one wonders how you came up with such a distorted understanding of American history.

@mavdog I hit Google earlier, and discovered articles claiming Obama does not pay women as much as men, and articles that claim it is true but highly situational depending on the level of the jobs. 

The most accurate SEEMS to be that Obama (and Jarrett) put more men in the senior positions in the White House than women. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/male-female-pay-gap-remains-entrenched-at-white-house/2014/07/01/dbc6c088-0155-11e4-8fd0-3a663dfa68ac_story.html

http://www.redstate.com/2014/07/02/gender-white-house-pay-inequity/

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/01/29/216301/how-does-obama-stack-up-on-womens.html

http://dailycaller.com/2014/01/16/analysis-men-still-make-a-lot-more-than-women-in-obamas-white-house/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/08/us/politics/as-obama-spotlights-gender-gap-in-wages-his-own-payroll-draws-scrutiny.html

@bmarvel @noblefurrtexas @TheRuddSki I think there is a hole in definition here. 

The First Continental Army was not stronger than the British military, the most powerful Army and Navy on the planet at the time.  And, I think "conquest" is not an accurate description of our purposes.  We were fighting for independence from Britain and the oppressions of King George. 

I think the word DOES apply to how the West was won.  In its drive for Manifest Destiny, America had to capture a great deal of land USED (not owned by) native Americans. 

But, I won't quibble on phrasing.  :)

@bmarvel @noblefurrtexas @TheRuddSki Well, I think there is something to our being favored by God in our development, and it has to be our religious underpinnings that well exceed The Declaration of Independence and our official founding. 

Can't prove it; it's just a belief I have. 

I don't even begin to be knowledgeable about India and its endemic religious beliefs.  It dropped off the radar screen after high school, and received only cursory attention in college. 

Been there once; landed there twice.  The place smells horrible, and as much as I liked some of the Indians I met and got to know, I'd kill myself before I'd live there.

@mavdog Minor in college, and every word is true.  We started out as an exceptional country that did several things never before in history successfully done.  That's one reason we are called, "The Great Experiment". 

But, if you believe something I said was NOT true, by all means speak up with why.

@mavdog

He left out the misery, oppression, sexism, racism, tribal hatreds, smallpox blankets, wanton slaughter of the natives, rape of the land, end of the buffalo, and horrid treatment of our neighbors.

And now, we are literally cooking Earth alive. God almighty, we suck.

:)

@noblefurrtexas @mavdog 

If you were to go back in history and take every president, you'll find that the numerical value of each letter in their name was equally divisible into the year in which they were elected. By my calculations, our next president has to be named Yellnick McWawa.
-- Cliff noblefurr Clavin

@TheRuddSki 

“At the White House, we have equal pay for equal work,” said White House spokeswoman Jessica Santillo. “Men and women in equivalent roles earn equivalent salaries"

none of your links show this to not be true.

try again....

@noblefurrtexas @bmarvel @TheRuddSki The British military were not fighting on or for their native soil, for their homes and farms. Their army was at the end of a 3500-miles supply line. And if God was on our side, so were the French.

(By the way, those colonists who didn't favor independence were forced to flee for their lives at the end of the War.)  

Manifest Destiny was a slogan, not a reality, until we pushed the native Americans and Mexico out of our way. We didn't "have" to do anything, noble. It was our choice to conquer the Indians, just as it was Gengis Kahn's choice to invade Eastern Europe and Hitler's to invade Poland.

What a strange view of history you have. I see nothing in morality or religion that says America has to exist the way it does now. America exists as the result of the desire of European colonists for more land and their military superiority over the people who were already here. The Indians did not invade England and Spain. 

If this makes us exceptional, than so was Babylon when it took the Israelites into captivity. So was Spain when Cortez conquered Mexico and Pizarro conquered the Incas. Your notion of morality, apparently, is that God's favor rests on the conqueror. Where have we heard that before?   

@noblefurrtexas @bmarvel @TheRuddSki "Smells horrible" -- Well, there you have it. Not favored by God.

@noblefurrtexas @mavdog

Why Switzerland Has the World's Best Health Care System

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/04/29/why-switzerland-has-the-worlds-best-health-care-system/

@noblefurrtexas @mavdog "We have never gained any land through conquest." Try everything we have.  We had to conquer and subdue the indigenous populate to get any land at all.  You can whitewash it any way you want, but the history of the US interaction with Native American tribes has been a stain on our Flag from the beginning.  And it isn't over, as we keep them in third world conditions on some reservations and routinely pilfer from the Tribal Trust fund (for the oil, gas and minerals that we rip out of their lands), to the tune of tens of billions of dollars.

@noblefurrtexas 

But, if you believe something I said was NOT true, by all means speak up with why

The US government structure has its basis in Roman Republicanism, it wa not "from scratch".

The "rule of law" and voters in the initial years of the Republic were limited to men, many times only land owners, not women or slaves.

We "internally freed the slaves" (not unique btw) at a cost of 600,000 lives.

The US has gained possession of territories from wars. Ever heard of Guam? Puerto Rico? Samoa?

The US did not "lead" the industrial revolution, that title goes to England. America industrialized in the 1800's after the "Industrial Revolution" had already changed manufacuring.

while our military has not been used to oppress people, our clandestine government organizations have been used to oppress many peoples around the world.

being religious or non-religious has zero to do with being "exceptional". as a matter of fact, counties such as Iran (a theocracy) are more religious.

He left out the greatest scourge America ever unleashed on an innocent, unsuspecting public....McDonalds.

@DonkeyHotay @noblefurrtexas @mavdog I'm getting a headache.  LOL

@mavdog @TheRuddSki Both are correct.  You're right that equal roles earn equal pay.  The wage gap in the white house staff is about the same as the national average, according to the NYTimes article linked above.  That gap is likely for the same reason as the national wage gap: men tend to have longer tenure and more work experience, thus they tend to occupy higher positions.  This is starting to change, but it is not a political or corporate phenomenon and political and corporate policies aren't what is changing it.  Women are, as Gandhi advised, being the change they wish to see in the world.  They are changing their 'role' in society, foregoing the 'wife and kids' bit and having their own careers, gaining that tenure and experience that will move them up.

Obama's white house has mostly male senior staff, meaning women are occupying a larger percentage of the lower GS grade jobs, giving the wage gap.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are guilty of exploiting this issue for political gains, without either side really doing anything about it.  Thankfully, women are finding their own strength and doing something about it themselves.

@mavdog

LOL

@bmarvel @noblefurrtexas @TheRuddSki "Manifest Destiny" was a slogan, but it was also a strategy.  Since Lewis and Clark, the Westward expansion seemed "ordained" (not in the religious sense).

I completely agree with you about the French, although most of their help was logistical.  However, I had an instructor in the service in a specialized "college" who firmly believed the Colonial Army would "probably" have lost the war for independence had it not been for the French.  (Who woulda thunk it!)

I think the motives of Americans, Babylonians, and the Spanish in Mexico were very different.  I don't completely endorse what we did concerning many of the Indians - including the inhuman relocations, but most of the occurred as a consequence of Indian determination to kill, torture, and disfigure American civilians and families. 

@bmarvel 

The place smells horrible

let's see, 1.2 million square miles and 1.2 Billion people, and the place smells horrible?

The Ugly American immediately comes to mind.

@bmarvel @noblefurrtexas @TheRuddSki In all honesty, one of the few things I loathe is curry.  Another is green bell peppers.  If they are in a kitchen, I can smell it.  (I know; WEIRD)

India, to me, smelled like both....mixed in with some other unpleasant smells.  Nice people; lots of poverty; interesting development; smells really bad.

@DonkeyHotay

#waronchoice

99.5% of Swiss citizens have health insurance. Because they can choose between plans from nearly 100 different private insurance companies, insurers must compete on price and service, helping to curb health care inflation.

We have to break people away from the choice habit that everyone has,” said Marcus Merz, the chief executive of PreferredOne, an insurer in Golden Valley...

"The data here reveals that there was an overall decrease in the number of policies. As Summary Table 1 shows, 27-year-olds in most areas had considerably more options on eHealth and Finder than they do now on the exchanges."

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA656.html#sthash.8zjbJxSv.dpuf

@RTGolden1 @noblefurrtexas @mavdog I completely agree we gained property for expansion by fighting and subduing American Indians.  I should have qualified my statement to say "foreign lands".  You can't even question the expansion West without discussing spreading diseases and our own share of massacres.  (Custer might disagree, but he no longer gets a vote.)

@mavdog The slaves in the South - not those in the North - were freed by Lincoln (acting as Commander In Chief of the army) so they could not help with the war effort.  Northern slaves were not freed until later.

@mavdog On the Industrial Revolution's beginning, (see the long list below), there has been argument over where and when it started by leading historians.  I tend to agree with Eric Hobsbawm's assessment that whether the Industrial Revolution was kindled In England or not, the raging fire took place in the United States, and lasted for almost two centuries.

I DO believe the Victorian Era was a golden time in Great Britain, and advances in industry as well as society were incredible.  For example, the East London Zoo was opened by Queen Victoria in Queen's Park. 

Even if the spark occurred first in England, we were clearly the leaders in developments.  (Also see list below.)

In addition to our Common Law traditions, we also received a myriad of ideas from England.  But, what we did with them was more than historic; it was also genius. 

)But, in all fairness, starting a new country and being able to design its government unimpeded by the previous one is rare in world history.  

@mavdog Part II. 

1796 Rumford fireplace

1801 Suspension bridge

1801 Fire hydrant

1804 Burr Truss

1805 Amphibious vehicle

1806 Coffee percolator

1812 Columbiad

1813 Circular saw

1815 Dental floss

1816 Milling machine

1818 Profile lathe

1827 Detachable collar

1829 Graham cracker

1830 Platform scale

1831 Flanged T rail

1831 Multiple coil magnet

1831 Doorbell (electric)

1832 Morse code

1833 Sewing machine (lock-stitch)

1834 Combine harvester

1835 Steam shovel

1835 Wrench

1835 Solar compass

1835 Relay

1836 Gridiron (cooking)

1837 Self-polishing cast steel plow

1839 Corn sheller

1839 Sleeping car

1839 Vulcanized rubber

1839 Babbitt (metal)

1840 Howe truss

1842 Inhalational anaesthetic

@mavdog List of patented inventions 1717 - 1860.  England couldn't hold a candle to it.

Part I.  

1717 Swim fins

1730 Octant

 1742 Franklin stove

1744 Mail order

1749 Lightning rod

1752 Flexible urinary catheter

1761 Armonica

1776 Swivel chair

1782 Flatboat

1784 Bifocals

1785 Artificial diffraction grating

1787 Automatic flour mill

1792 Cracker

1793 Cotton gin

1795 Wheel cypher

@mavdog You may also recall that Roman senators were not elected; they were selected by Consuls, and sometime subordinated magistrates. 

Rome did not have self-government, a HUGE distinction from the U.S. form of governance.  Caesar was all powerful; American presidents are not. They also didn't have impeachment for removing a head of state; they used knives and such.

@mavdog The territories are not  gain by America.  They were intended to be temporary as opposed to an integral part of the United States. 

I agree some of our structure came from Rome, but our constitution is unique in history.  Rome had no such constitution, and its government was superior to its citizens.  Ours is the other way around.

I certainly give England credit for its industrialization, but it was not with the speed and broad application as in the United States.  

I think any theocracy is more religious in the pure sense.  I was speaking in the sense of voluntary adherence to a religion(s). 

You're right about some agencies such as the CIA and NSA.   But they took the "model" from Great Britain's security services. 

@mavdog Oh, come on, Mavdog! Have you even tried an Egg McMuffin and a cup of coffee?

@noblefurrtexas @mavdog

Well, a herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it’s the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. 

-- Cliff noblefurr Clavin

@RTGolden1 

I will agree the stat that is tossed out regarding the disparity in pay is not an accurate read on if there is equality or inequality as it is merely an average.

that being said, there are many examples of wage discrimination existing in corporate America.

My view is the workplace should be compelled to treat all employees equally, including equal pay for equal job, regardless of sex, race or age.

@TheRuddSki 

LOL, clearly I am right.

@noblefurrtexas 

I don't completely endorse what we did concerning many of the Indians - including the inhuman relocations, but most of the occurred as a consequence of Indian determination to kill, torture, and disfigure American civilians and families.

yeah, those Natives, thinking they have the right to "kill, torture and disfigure American civilians and families" just because those "American civilians and their families" were stealing the Natives land, killing and torturing the Natives and their families, and killing all the buffalo the Natives used to live on for time immemorial.

some people just don't get it, do they? the white man had the divine right to do all the killing and torturing, but those Natives? nope.

@noblefurrtexas @bmarvel @TheRuddSki I make  no claim for India's hygiene, noble. I do know that religion -- Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhism -- permeates daily life in India in a way it does not and never has in the Sunday-church-going "Christian" United States.

@TheRuddSki

Behold Texas Health Care

(today) Five babies in El Paso, Texas, have tested positive for tuberculosis after being exposed to the infectious disease at a local hospital, the city's health department says.

Providence Memorial Hospital has identified more than 850 infants and 43 health care workers who were potentially exposed after a nurse came to work with an active case of TB some time between September 2013 and August 2014. He or she worked with infants in the nursery and in the post-partum unit at the hospital.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/29/health/babies-test-positive-tb/index.html

@TheRuddSki

Nun Umzug in die Schweiz, Esel.

@noblefurrtexas Your longing for the 19th century suggests you should invent a "way-back" machine and beam yourself back to those glorious days.

@noblefurrtexas ... LOL!

How many of those Patents were developed / invented by FOREIGNERS or IMMIGRANTS?

@noblefurrtexas @mavdog Caesar, noble, came after the Roman Republic. He destroyed the Republic, in fact.

I now understand that the reason you imagine that America is exceptional is that, while you minored in American history, you did not bother to study anyone else's.

@noblefurrtexas

It's a little known fact that cows were domesticated in Mesopotamia and were also used in China as guard animals for the forbidden city. -- Cliff nft Clavin

@noblefurrtexas 

Consuls were elected themselves, and they did not select the Senators. Consuls were the Executive Branch of the Rome government, Senators were in the Legislative branch.

Senators were selected by the aristocracy, the Tribal Assembly were all the other Citizens.

Caesar came at the end of the Republic. the concept of "checks and balances" came from Rome.

so yes, there is a basis of Roman government in the US structure. a lot.

@noblefurrtexas 

The territories are not gain by America. They were intended to be temporary as opposed to an integral part of the United States.

"temporary"??? it's been way over a century now. you were wrong.

I agree some of our structure came from Rome, but our constitution is unique in history. Rome had no such constitution, and its government was superior to its citizens. Ours is the other way around.

the citizens in Rome WERE the "government".

I certainly give England credit for its industrialization, but it was not with the speed and broad application as in the United States.

your point was wrong, and this point is just as questionable.

I think any theocracy is more religious in the pure sense. I was speaking in the sense of voluntary adherence to a religion(s).

interesting that you somehow believe the people with religious beliefs do so voluntarily in America, but do not do so voluntarily elsewhere. ridiculous position.

You're right about some agencies such as the CIA and NSA. But they took the "model" from Great Britain's security services.

NSA?? good grief. and then you point a finger at England in a sort of "but they did it too" excuse.

@DonkeyHotay This guy makes Mother Goose look like a documentary producer.  :)

@mavdog @RTGolden1 I pretty much agree with you, but with the following caveats: 

1.  Actual on the job experience

2.  Personal production and ability

3.  Complaints

4.  Education

5.  Suitability

6.  Attitude

7.  Record for volunteering

I always believe there are conditions such as "likeability" that come into play, especially when dealing with the public.  So, commendations, supervisor's ratings, and incident reports are important.  (That includes missed days of work.)

MOST employers want to keep good employees, so they pay them more and give them more recognition - regardless of gender. 

I also believe in bonus systems to encourage and motivate workers.  However, I believe they are detrimental when workers come to expect them for average work. 

@mavdog

Of course you are! You cited an administration statement, and this administration would never be anything less than truthful, forthright and transparent.

L.O.L.

@Donk

Behold Texas Health Care

How in the heck does an El Paso health worker come into contact with TB in a town flooded with illegal immigrants?

What a mystery!

@DonkeyHotay

I once considered it actually, but it's almost as expensive as England, and there's a language barrier. What's your excuse, no hay suficientes empleos lavavajillas?

@DonkeyHotay @noblefurrtexas Some.  I couldn't give you a number.  In fact, look at many of our inventions well into the 20th Century, and you'll see a number of life-changing inventions created by American immigrants. 

As was pointed out by a college professor I had, most inventions were the result of cumulative predecessors contrived by past innovations and inventions. 

@DonkeyHotay @noblefurrtexas Part III

1842 Grain elevator

1843 Ice cream maker (hand-cranked)

1843 Multiple-effect evaporator

1843 Rotary printing press

1844 Pratt truss

1845 Pressure-sensitive tape

1845 Maynard tape primer

1846 Transverse shuttle

1847 Gas mask

1847 Doughnut (ring-shaped)

1848 Pin tumbler lock

1849 Safety pin

1850 Dishwasher

1850 Feed dogs

1850 Vibrating shuttle

1850 Inverted microscope

1851 Rotary hook

1851 Fire alarm box

1852 Elevator brake

1853 Burglar alarm

1853 Potato chips

1854 Breast pump

1855 Calliope

1856 Egg beater

1856 Condensed milk

1856 Equatorial sextant

1857 Toilet paper (mass-produced and rolled)

1857 Pink lemonade

1857 Brown Truss

1858 screw top Pepper shaker

1858 Mason jar

1858 Pencil eraser

1858 Ironing board

1858 Twine knotter

1858 Dustpan

1859 Electric stove

1859 Escalator

1860 Vacuum cleaner

1860 Repeating rifle (lever action)

@mavdog @noblefurrtexas I realize what you're saying, but - in fact - consul's choosing of Senators was common, no doubt because of their place in the aristocracy. 

But, Roman government was different for many other reasons.  It did not have balanced bicameral legislative bodies, did not have a written constitution, did not have citizen supremacy over government, did not have equal branches in the government between executive, legislative, and judicial.

One could hardly say that Roman Senators were "elected" as opposed to chosen.  But, there's no question those with a say in the choosing were frequently the only ones that mattered much.  :)

@mavdog @noblefurrtexas I think you're ascribing a perfect system on an imperfect and often not consistent system.  Aristocracy sometimes did pick (not exactly "elect") consults, but they also showed up in other ways. 

I completely agree about the basics of checks and balances. 

But, if you look at the men who the Founders looked to for advice/inspiration/knowledge/historical-precedent, you find a mosh-mash of philosophies that offered bits and pieces of inspiration.  But, their fear/hatred/distrust of big government as an oppressive force probably inspired a great many auto-brakes on historical precedents. 

I believe their scheme for electing senators was brilliant, and allowing only paid-up property owners to vote assured those with skin in the game made the decisions.  (Eventually, they would have added women to that group, but my guess is that it would have taken over a century to get there.)

I complete agree the Founders borrowed bits and pieces from historical precedents. But, they combined them in a totally unique way to create something that has never existed before, and is still the longest running show of its kind in all of history.  

@mavdog These territories were INTENDED to be temporary.  I would offer Carter's idiotic move to turn the Canal Zone over to Panama.....which was the same thing as turning a major strategic advantage over to the Chinese. 

In fact, the very last Panama Canal Zone governor was Gen. Hal Parfitt, father of Bush PR person Karen Parfitt Hughes.  

He understood removing it from the command of the U.S. Army, but he didn't understand why an American president would simply abandon a strategic resource like that, knowing from intelligence reports that the Chinese were ready to take it over and control that strategic advantage. 

@mavdog "but it was not with the speed and broad application as in the United States."

In the interest of keeping the argument honest, mav, noble's unquestionably right on that one. 

Also, I'd be curious to know how you see religion as not voluntary here, as opposed to -- say -- Iran or Saudi Arabia, where citizens are not free to not be religious.

Otherwise, still a lopsided score with the U.S. clearly not exceptional. 

@mavdog No.  England did it FIRST. LOL

They are still considered the best intelligence gathering nation on the planet, although Mossad in Israel is a close second. 

One of the most fascinating aspects of England's military intelligence was MI-8, that specialized in smuggling items into Nazi prisons (like maps, paper for fake IDs, German rank indicators, etc.)

@TheRuddSki 

well then, prove the statement wrong.

you're very eager to show this administration isn't "truthful, forthright and transparent", in fact obsessively, so if you make a claim there is not equal pay for an equal job show that is the case.

otherwise, you should retract your claim.....unless you do not want to be "truthful" or "forthright" in how you conduct yourself.

well? how do you conduct yourself?

@TheRuddSki ... you're so predictably pathetic.

@TheRuddSki ... too bad for you their strict immigration policy all but excludes men from becoming citizens -- even if you were to find a Swiss woman stupid enough to marry you -- but it allows women to become citizens if they marry Swiss men.

Poor angry old men like you are relegated to 3rd world countries in your quest for affordable retirement.

@noblefurrtexas "most inventions were the result of cumulative predecessors contrived by past innovations and inventions. "

Then they're not Patentable under U$ law.

hth.

@bmarvel 

In the interest of keeping the argument honest, mav, noble's unquestionably right on that one.

nope.

until the end of the 19th Century, England's GDP was greater than the USA's. when England did lose the lead in manufacturing to the USA it was decades after the end of the Industrial Revolution.

the Industrial Revolution was into the next phase, the Second Industrial Revolution, when the USA surpassed England in manufacturing production.

WW1 put the hurt on England (by way of the huge toll on lost workers/loss of life) that England never recovered. by the 1920's the USA economy was 2x the size of England's. that is a century following the end of the Industrial revolution.

recall the original point that was challenged, [America] were the leaders of the Industrial Revolution.

@noblefurrtexas @mavdog http://i58.tinypic.com/fktys7.jpg

@noblefurrtexas @mavdog Ah, yes. MI-8, where every other member was a Soviet spy, busy exposing British and American secrets.

@mavdog

It's hopeless, amigo. Carry on.

"Authority is truth"

@Donk

Probably caught it from canadian tourists.

From WHO:

"TB is second only to HIV/AIDS as the greatest killer worldwide due to a single infectious agent.

In 2012 alone, 15% of the reported 8.6 million cases resulted in death.

TB is the 3rd leading cause of death for women ages 15-44 in low and middle income countries.

All age groups are at risk, though TB primarily affects young adults. (About 80% of those crossing our southern borders in this latest wave are in this age group.)"

Let's see what the CDC has to say...

"Nationwide, tuberculosis rates fell to an all time low in the U.S. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that fewer than 9,600 cases of TB were reported in 2013, which is a decline of 4.2 percent over the prior year. More than half of the 9,600 were in four states – California, Florida, New York and Texas – and case numbers increased in New York City and Los Angeles County.

The CDC notes that a disproportionate number of cases in the U.S. are among foreign-born people, who are believed to have arrived with the infection in their system"

Sorry.

@Donk

Poor angry old men like you are relegated to 3rd world countries in your quest for affordable retirement.

Which is why I, um, live in the US, in places most sane people would love to live.

The only place I've ever lived that people don't envy is Texas.

@DonkeyHotay @noblefurrtexas They were different enough, or had an original purpose to do things differently, that allowed them to do work better, fast, and generally cheaper. 

For example, the inventor of the electric drill cannot claim originality to every hole drilled with one.  Lots of process improvements were invented for work and home from the 1700s forward. 

The Brits tended to do things the same way for decades, and change in old and respected firms was very slow coming.  In the meantime, the U.S. had few of those constraints, and no caste system that greatly influenced who could take credit for an invention. 

One of the reasons I'm a fan of the War of 1812 was the chance for Brits to see the culture of a developing America, and despite trying to burn Washington to the ground, British officers write about what they found in America, and how much more advanced it was in many ways. 

One of the best things that ever happened to them and to us was their losing that war, and the beginning of a national friendship that made them our closest ally.

@mavdog @bmarvel GDP does not reflect success with the Industrial Revolution.  After all, many of the inventions and modernizations REPLACED workers who lost their jobs, and were no longer part of the earning economy...reducing GDP.

A significant part of the Industrial Revolution was intended to do more with fewer resources.  While that was meant to increase profits by reducing expenses. in many industries the orders for production materials went down, thereby REDUCING GDP. 

In many cases, the costs for automation and improvements were so high, and took so long to get working properly, that it was YEARS before businesses made money on those improvements. 

Great Britain had a somewhat different economy than ours....which I'm sure you knew but just forgot.  

@mavdog @bmarvel I note noble's argument -- "but it was not with the speed and broad application as in the United States" -- did not specify a range of dates. In the long run he is correct. The exact extent and definition of the Industrial Revolution is much debated among historians. My own sense -- and this is based mainly upon research on coal, steel and railroads for a long book project -- is that England led the way but that the U.S. very quickly caught up and after 1800 was rapidly pulling ahead. From then on, there was no looking back. We were the leaders. Does this make a case, as noble insists, for American exceptionalism? Not exceptional, perhaps, but clearly superior. (Though perhaps our exceptionalism in this regards is rapidly coming to an end.)

My own instinct is to grant that for a good part of the late 19th and the 20th century, we were exceptional at generating capital and putting it to work spawning large-scale industrialization. Did this translate to the lives of ordinary Americans? Only with the growth of the union movement (here, noble would probably disagree; he'd be wrong.) That has also come to an end.

I think you and I would probably agree overall that noble's arguments for American exceptionalism are pure bunkum. Only in this one area, outlined above, can we be regarded as in any sense exceptional. In the area of guaranteeing equal rights to all citizens -- the one area where a claim of exceptionalism might be meaningful --  we have talked a good game, but the final score is not in yet. In fact, there may never be a final score.

@mavdog @bmarvel As I said below, I rather tend to agree with Eric Hobsbawm that while England may have kindled the Industrial Revolution, the burning fire took place in the United States. 

If you look at American inventions compared to British inventions - and industrialization and mechanization of processes, America wins hands down. 

There's a fair amount of dispute as to WHEN the first Industrial Revolution started and ended.  But, the list of inventions I posted below, which the British can't even compete with, is just for patents granted into the Civil War.  It doesn't recognize modernization of industrial methods that were not patented, but employed in America. 

I don't doubt one bit that Britain's GDP surpassed America for quite some time; it was a mature country with companies that exceeded 100 years old (like John Broadwood and Sons pianos - which I've visited).  But, America was out-pacing considerable British modernization and patents. 

And, if you compare inventions SINCE 1850, it's not even close - especially in agriculture, mining, production of furniture, lighting products, stoves and ovens, etc.

It's also fair to say America quickly became the world standard in communications, and eventually in printing. 

@bmarvel @noblefurrtexas @mavdog That's not MI-8.  You're thinking of MI-5 and MI-6.  But, no question they had several infiltrations by the Soviets.

MI-8 was a special mission section devoted to studying was to smuggle helpful items into Nazi prisons to aid in escapes.

@TheRuddSki  "It's hopeless, amigo." 

What, Ruddski? Dropping out of the argument so soon? Mavdog made a reasonable request: You imply the Obama White House does not pay men and women equally for equal work. Fine. Let's see your data.

@TheRuddSki ... or worse, some Brit with bad dentition.

@TheRuddSki  "The only place I've ever lived that people don't envy is Texas"

.. and Satan orders down jackets for everyone!

@noblefurrtexas 

it is clear you do not understand what GDP actually means...

GDP does not reflect success with the Industrial Revolution. After all, many of the inventions and modernizations REPLACED workers who lost their jobs, and were no longer part of the earning economy...reducing GDP.
 

no, the machines were more productive than the human workers, increasing the GDP.

A significant part of the Industrial Revolution was intended to do more with fewer resources. While that was meant to increase profits by reducing expenses. in many industries the orders for production materials went down, thereby REDUCING GDP.

no, the manufacturing of the machinery increased GDP, and the production from the machinery increased GDP. do you believe profit is the "p" in GDP????

In many cases, the costs for automation and improvements were so high, and took so long to get working properly, that it was YEARS before businesses made money on those improvements.

the investment increased GDP, the ROI doesn't enter the equation of GDP.

Great Britain had a somewhat different economy than ours....which I'm sure you knew but just forgot.

yes, until the later part of the 19th century the USA was agrarian, England was industrial. that's the point...

@noblefurrtexas 

And, if you compare inventions SINCE 1850, it's not even close

that would be post industrial revolution, which ended in the mid-19th Century.

patents do not equal economy. when the Industrial revolution ended, the mid 19th century, England's economy was over 2x the size of America's.

there is no doubt who started and who lead the industrial revolution. they spoke english, but it was not America it was England.

@noblefurrtexas @bmarvel @mavdog Yes. My mistake.

Neither we nor the British seem to have been exceptional spy-masters since WWII. Perhaps that distinction willhave to go to the USSR.

@bmarvel.

I lied.

Brazenly, openly, proudly lied my ass off to advance my lying, fraudulent agenda.

I hope to be president some day!

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303532704579483752909957472

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2013/06/18/women_and_the_unequal_pay_myth_100407.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

@bmarvel 

but Bill, that's just what the RuddSki does,

RuddSki and his fixation on Obama being all things evil is like testing if the spaghetti is done. he throws some up on the wall and sees if it will stick. if it doesn't, no worry, he'll just move on to his next outrage.

@bmarvel @TheRuddSki Having heard it on several different broadcasts, and one news article, it sounded like hypocrisy to me, and true. 

I don't have first-hand knowledge of the White House personnel records, so I can't independently confirm it.  But, spending a little time on Google produced two distinct arguments:  1)  Yes, Obama pays women who work for him less, 2) he has more men in senior and higher paying positions than women. 

@Donk

From me.

@mavdog You're going to hate this.  GDP replaced the phase Gross National Product.  But, they are essentially the same. 

You can modernize a factory all you want.  But, guess what happens if you can't sell the goods. And, don't forget that GDP considers services produced, and the general health of the economy. 

I know you may not believe me, so here's a common definition of GDP:

"It includes all of private and public consumption, government outlays, investments and exports less imports that occur within a defined territory."

Ever notice that in times of economic downturns, GDP goes down as does economic growth?  Think about it, and it'll make sense. 

The service sector, and the government sectors are included in the calculation.  Yet, in the Industrial Revolution, they didn't reflect that as much of the total GDP as today; but they were not insignificant.  In fact, today we have a service economy and are weak on manufacturing.  Yet, or GDP has been healthy much of the time.

@mavdog @noblefurrtexas That's why my list begins in the 1700s and ends at the start of the Civil War.  :)

@bmarvel @noblefurrtexas @mavdog In a vastly changing world of new technologies almost every day, and virtually instant communications, intelligence gathering methods have had to adapt.

But, in all fairness, the CIA has become one of the preeminent intelligence agencies on the planet, and probably surpasses the British Secret Intelligence Service in terms of space technology, aerial spy flights (such as U-2 flights and satellite tracking), and has a much larger reach than Great Britain.  (With appropriate credit to our DIA and NSA, of course.)

The Soviets were not completely incompetent at intelligence gathering, just because of sheer numbers.  And, their Hollywood/Broadway portrayals as bungling, bumbling clowns were mostly out of square with reality.  But, counter-intelligence folks found them relative easy to detect, follow,electronically  intercept, and predict. 

There is no question that when Harry Truman and Allen Dulles converted the  OSS (Office of Strategic Services), and to some extent the Office of War Information into the CIA, the reorganization and mission redefinitions slowed down what had been a very efficient and dedicated group as the OSS.

But, I still give MI-5 and MI-6 credit for being the best in many ways, and Mossad in many ways.

@TheRuddSki 

it is interesting to note that none-none- of your links can show that gender wage discrimination doesn't exist, they just offer reasons why it isn't as big a difference as many believe, and why it exists (the part of women being mothers is striking, as we know men aren't dads...)

in the real world, real world discrimination

Checkers

http://www1.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-2-14.cfm

Dollar General

http://www.law360.com/articles/281538/dollar-general-to-pay-19m-to-end-gender-bias-action

Uniroyal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrapliwy_v._Uniroyal

Abercrombie & Fitch

http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-18-04.cfm

and the famous Ledbetter v Goodyear, where the SCOTUS ruled the Statute of Limitations prevented Ledbetter from collecting even though the Court said "she could have, and should have, sued" as she was discriminated against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledbetter_v._Goodyear_Tire_%26_Rubber_Co.

yes Dorothy, there's a good chance you will not be paid the same as a man for the same work.

for anyone to claim that there isn't gender wage discrimination is irrational.

@mavdog @bmarvel That's not all that Ruddski does, mavdog.. For a long time I kept track of his racist comments. Almost no race escaped his contempt. Lately he's toned that down. (But he's switched his profile to "privatge," so it's no longer possible to track his record on that score.) 

He's certainly a piece pf work.

@noblefurrtexas @bmarvel @TheRuddSki  "Yes, Obama pays women who work for him less,"

Yes, noble. Less than whom? 

Less than men in similar positions? That is exactly the information we are asking for here.

But let's all be honest about what's going on: Even if Obama paid his female staff in gold bullion and perfumed their offices with fountains of running chocolate, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You and some others here don't like Obama. Period. Never have liked him. Won't ever like him.

Fine. I have no problem with that. I'm certainly not a great Obama enthusiast, myself. 

But to huff and puff over supposed gender inequality in White House salaries when,in reality, neither you nor his other critics give a fig about gender inequality in or out of the White House is disingenuous, to use the kindest word. 

Criticize Obama. Fine. Have at it. But honest criticism is not nitpicking. This is the kind of whining that leads some of us to suspect that the real problem is not the president's policies or philosophy. It's really his party or his skin. Or, most likely, both.

@noblefurrtexas @bmarvel @TheRuddSki

I wonder if you know that the harp is a predecessor of the modern day guitar. Early minstrels were much larger people. In fact, they had hands the size of small dogs
-- Cliff noblefurr Clavin

@noblefurrtexas

Yes, Obama pays women who work for him less

less than what? less then they deserve? less than men in the same job? you're ridiculous about acccuracy.

here we go again, you making stuff up.

show how he pays women who work for him less than...what? after all, you've been on google, it should be easy.

@noblefurrtexas

You're going to hate this. GDP replaced the phase Gross National Product. But, they are essentially the same.

you know, I'm reading your post and it occurs to me that you are trying really, really hard to be a parody of Donkey's Cliff Clavin analogy.

and you are doing a stellar job BTW. it's pretty funny.

@bmarvel

For a long time I kept track of his what I consider racist comments.

Fixed that for you, champ.

Almost no race escaped his contempt.

Fair and balanced, honky.

Lately he's toned that down.

Haven't changed a thing, Sherlock.

@bmarvel @mavdog

You can track his vile repugnant habitual racism and bigotry by "following" his profile -- if you dare -- you'll get a copy of all his noxious spew even though the gutless cowardly maggot tried to hide behind a private profile.

@DonkeyHotay Thank you for sharing that.

@noblefurrtexas 

I've come to the realization that your problem in grasping the difference between what is a fact and what is an opinion.

there's a difference, a huge difference, and you don't appear to understand the difference...

@mavdog @noblefurrtexas

NobleFurrClavin

@Donk

You can track his vile repugnant habitual racism and bigotry by "following" his profile -- if you dare -- you'll get a copy of all his noxious spew even though the gutless cowardly maggot tried to hide behind a private profile.

Myrna thoroughly researched my comments and posted the most vile examples of racism.

Her attempt disproved her (and yours and bmarvel's) accusations better than I could hope to.

She had to take statements out of context, or jokes, to mis-represent my statements to make her point. That's a fail, btw.

I took the effort to retrieve whole comments to expose the laughable attempts at smearing, but as a classic liberal who honors the words of Dr. King, I'm accustomed to being called racist just as conservative blacks are called house niggers and such by people who see racism everywhere but in themselves.

@TheRuddSki ... so you are asserting that you aren't the lowlife vile shitsucking bigoted racist piece of shit that you are?

@Donk

I'm asserting that assertions make an ass out of you and your fello ertions