How Do We Determine What Books Are and Are Not Appropriate For Kids?

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Joe Crawford
Should parents have a say in what classroom books their kids read? Actually, probably not.

Highland Park ISD announced at the end of last week that it would be suspending seven books from the high school reading list: Herman Hesse's Siddhartha, Garth Stein's The Art of Racing in the Rain, John Green's An Abundance of Katherines, Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon, Sherman Alexie's The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, David K. Shipler's The Working Poor: Invisible in America and Jeannette Walls' The Glass Castle.

See also: Highland Park ISD Bans Books Because Sex

The books were removed after parents decried the books over the last several months. Many object to the books on the grounds that they are not age-appropriate for high school kids. In a letter sent out to parents in May, HPHS Principal Walter Kelly defended the selections, saying the school works to "meet the developmentally appropriate balance of challenging our students' thinking while upholding community values and standards." Now, it seems the district is more anxious to brush the controversial selections under the rug, rather than defend them to angry parents.

Still, the books' inclusion in school curriculum raises the question: How do teachers, parents, publishers, writers, and students determine whether or not a book is "developmentally appropriate?"

After all, there's a difference between reading Hamlet at age 10 and at age 20. . "In general, I believe that most books have an ideal age in which they should read," Dr. Martha Satz, an SMU English professor who researches children's literature, says. "If you read Little Women at 18, you've lost out on something that is meant for children. But there are adult books that will be read by young people. One looks at a book in its entirety, and things in their entirety, and what they're about, rather than fixing on one scene and throwing the whole thing out."

See also: Park Cities Parents Want Their Kids to Read the Classics, Not These Newfangled Porn Novels

Satz adds that educators should be determining what is age-appropriate, rather than parents. "I don't think parents necessarily have the training, the education, or have read the books in their entirety. So I think educators should make the call in terms of readings and their curriculum," she says. "Young people are not shielded from society. Then when we offer them well-written, intelligent literature, then we want to take that out of their hands -- I think this is negative."

See also: Park Cities Kids Are Already Rich. Why Do We Want Them To Be Smart?

And for Highland Park kids, exposure to poverty is especially important, Satz says. "If we look at the particular books that have been suspended, I do think they are developmentally appropriate," Satz says. "They're dealing with questions of identity, the meaning of life, all kinds of issues. Two deal with poverty in a very compelling way, which I think especially privileged kids need to learn about not in an abstract, 'Bring your canned food to the poor' way, but in a way that builds empathy and identification with people who are superficially unlike them."

But what makes a book bad for a high schooler, and perfect for a college student? "There's no formula for that," Satz says. "It's a judgment call, of course, but most of the books seem to have been banned for superficial reasons. ... I think students and young people assimilate what they're prepared to assimilate." Satz laughs, and adds that students will probably go out their way to read the books now. "When a book is suspended or banned, it makes it all that more attractive."

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75 comments
noblefurrtexas
noblefurrtexas

The books weren't banned.  They were suspended from the high school reading list, as your story says. but they are still available in the library. 


I cannot blame parents or taxpayers who find on a reading list books intended for an older crowd that contain explicit sexual references or other adult topics. 


I strongly believe parents should have a strong hand in what movies their kids see, what books they read, and what they do on the Internet while they are still teenagers.  After that, there is not much parents can do.  But, the children have a better chance of a head-start at responsibility and morality.

dingo
dingo

'educators should be determining what is age-appropriate, rather than parents.' 

Parental involvement hinders the state approved decantation processes implemented in our hatcheries and conditioning centers.

Myrna.Minkoff-Katz
Myrna.Minkoff-Katz topcommenter

A Confederacy of Dunces should be required reading in every school in America.  It is the greatest novel written in the 20th Century.

John1073
John1073

These parents are putting too much faith in the fact their children will actually read during the summer. Secondly, unless the list is *required* reading, then why can a parent not tell their child they are not to read certain books on the list. Is the parent that lazy that they'd rather have the school district feed them a list of books? Also, what stops the child from buying it on their own when you drop them off at the mall unsupervised and they happen to venture away from the vampire tween section at B&N?

Sharon_Moreanus
Sharon_Moreanus topcommenter

At least the playboys aren't banned from dads closet.

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

Dr. Martha Satz, who otherwise makes perfectly good sense, gets her first thought on the subject -- "I believe that most books have an ideal age in which they should read"-- badly tangled with her final thoughts -- ""There's no formula....I think students and young people assimilate what they're prepared to assimilate." 

One of the hazards of interviews, I realie. But the writer should have asked for clarification.

roo_ster
roo_ster

"How Do We Determine What Books Are and Are Not Appropriate For Kids?"

Let the taxpayers decide.  Sometimes that includes parents, other times not.  The taxpayers are paying the cost to be the boss.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

 Satz adds that educators should be determining what is age-appropriate, rather than parents. "I don't think parents necessarily have the training, the education, or have read the books in their entirety.


lulz.  And this buffoon thinks that teachers have read the books themselves.  They haven't, they've just read the Cliffs Notes and what the lesson plan says to take from the book.


Let's face it, if our teachers were competent, they wouldn't have to force the students to read these books, they would be seeking them out on their own.

MattL11
MattL11

I've always thought that once you're in high school, there shouldn't be any content-based (i.e. "Ewww, gay sex!") restrictions on what you're allowed to read. 

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@Myrna.Minkoff-Katz


"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."


Its central character, Ignatius J. Reilly. Ignatius Jacques Reilly is something of a modern Don Quixote—eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion ...



bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@roo_ster as usual, rooster's argument do not go nearly far enough. Why leave just the choice of children's books to so-called "experts."  Shouldn't taxpayers be allowed to draw up the school biology curriculum, the history curriculum -- why stop here? -- the algebra curriculum, trig, chemistry, physics? And why limit this to middle and high schools?  Shouldn't the taxpayers who pay for state universities be allowed to dictate the content of college courses?

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps 

And this buffoon thinks that teachers have read the books themselves. They haven't, they've just read the Cliffs Notes and what the lesson plan says to take from the book.

and you are able to know this to be a fact how? did you interview the teachers?

what a huge load of BS.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

what, his "first childrens book"? I've seen some of Limbaugh's books and it sure seems that they are ALL books written for children.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@MattL11

I've always thought that once you're in high school, there shouldn't be any content-based (i.e. "Ewww, gay sex!") restrictions on what you're allowed to read.

There isn't.

This issue can be confusing because people keep referring to "banned" books that are not banned.

roo_ster
roo_ster

@MattL11 

If you are paying your own way, that is a fine idea.  If someone else is, not so much.

Myrna.Minkoff-Katz
Myrna.Minkoff-Katz topcommenter

"Somewhere in Fantasyland, Ignatius was dreaming of a terrified Myrna Minkoff being tried by a court of Taste and Decency and found wanting. A dreadful sentence was about to be pronounced, something guaranteeing physical injury to her person as penance for innumerable offenses." ---A Confederacy of Dunces

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@bmarvel

How were those books "banned" at HPISD, through the actions of Arlington ISD taxpayers?

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

You've "seen" some of Rush's books, eh?

Did they make you angry like they did the little book-banners in the link?

Cover art is so important.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

This issue can be confusing because people keep referring to "banned" books that are not banned.

odd, if a book is prohibited from being read in the classroom, and prohibited from being reviewed/discussed in the classroom, how is that not defined as being "banned"? does "prohibited" sound better to you? or do you prefer "verboten"?

MattL11
MattL11

@TheRuddSki I wasn't referring just to the HPISD thing (though you're right that those books were not technically banned). I was making a broader point about age-appropriateness and the content of high school literature courses. 


Either that, or I worded it inartfully because it's Monday and I didn't get any fucking sleep last night. 

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@TheRuddSki You're the one recommending that taxpayers get to ban books. I'll leave it up to you to figure how this will work out.


I do \remember back in he 1950s when a group of parents set up a howl because our English teacher, a Jesuit, was teaching us that "filthy" James Joyce. They were paying for our education, so you might expect that they got to call the tune. But they didn't. The customer is not always right.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps 

ahh, I see, because you went to school and you read the books you are able to say the teachers haven't read the books in question.

what stellar logic.

like I said, correctly looking at your response, what a load of BS.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

Education majors tend to be a little dimmer than most, and teacher training programs are the "Bermuda Triangle" of higher education, according to Arne Duncan.

So you're probably closer to the truth than not.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

Did they make you angry like they did the little book-banners in the link?

oh no, the parts I read made me laugh. not that I am proud of laughing at dimwits, but in Limbaugh's case I couldn't stop myself.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

The books were removed from a list of reccomendations, that's all.

Show me where there is a prohibition of discussion.

roo_ster
roo_ster

@MattL11 @roo_ster 

It is the heart of the matter. If you are dependent on others to pay for your education, you owe them deference as to the content of that education.


Put another way, "Beggars can't be choosers."  Well, many do try to whinge & complain, but it should be pointed out and shoved down their throats that they are not footing hte bill and they need to drink a nice warm glass of STFU until they can pay their own way.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@bmarvel

You're the one recommending that taxpayers get to ban books.

Really? My memory must be fading.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @everlastingphelps Because I read the books, I recognized when the teachers would describe something inaccurately from the text, and when I comment on it to my friends, they point to the Cliffs Notes for support for what the teacher says.  


Because I read the books, I was able to recount things from the text that contradict the assertion made by the teacher, and these things from the text are first refuted as not being in the text, and then when I quoted the text, it was met with complete shock from the teacher.


(Yes, I suppose I was a pain in the ass for teachers, since I was, you know, trying to actually learn instead of just passing the classes.)


And, for the final point, after escaping HS, I ended up as friends with several teachers (some of the same, in fact) who tended to respond to references to those books with, "ehh, I never even read that shit."

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

Education majors tend to be a little dimmer than most

not to get into your propensity to use a large paintbrush to view a group of people as monolitihic, you must not be aware that many teachers weren't education majors in college....

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

He doesn't care. He's a great success at everything he does. Nothing but best-sellers, big-buck contracts, etc., he's laughing at you.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

you should learn more about their "removal" before making incorrect statements....

"the seven books were suspended from classroom use..." Superintendent Dawson Orr

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@roo_ster I'm not understanding the point you're making.  It seems you are saying that only those people paying property taxes should get to have any input on educational curriculum. (even though everyone except the homeless pays property taxes, it is figured into rents.)

Isn't public education supposed to benefit the public?  how does the public benefit from letting closed minded ostriches with their heads in the sand shove little ostriches' heads into the same sand?  It doesn't, would be the correct answer.

By the way, these people footing the bill for public education are the same ones who buy their kids Xbox, Wii and other game consoles in lieu of actually interacting with them.  Not exactly the people I want deciding what my kid gets to read and learn in school.

MattL11
MattL11

@roo_ster That is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. And as someone who reads the Observer regularly, that's saying something. 

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

Teachers often rely on study/discussion guides. They don't have to read the book.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @mavdog 

oh, so you don't really know if the teachers did or did not read the books in question, you just think that you do.

thanks for clearing that up.

yes, a load of BS.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

Yes, I know, but that doesn't change my point a bit, and it's statistics that are painting with broad brush.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

He doesn't care. He's a great success at everything he does. Nothing but best-sellers, big-buck contracts, etc., he's laughing at you.

nah, he's busy being a big shot talking mouth, he couldn't care less about me.

I guess you see him as a good, positive role model right?

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

Show me where discussion is banned.

roo_ster
roo_ster

@RTGolden1 @roo_ster 

My point is not difficult to understand.  It is both commonsensical and has been considered fair and just for time immemorial.  It takes an inversion of morality and justice to think it odd:  "He who pays the piper calls the tune."

Your understanding of parents and taxpayers is pig fucking ignorant if you think they are all "closed minded ostriches" because they pay attention to reading lists and holler when they find something objectionable.  (That is _proof_ they are paying attention, for the short-bus crowd.)


Your sterotypes of those who are involved are proof of more ignorance.  Parents who are concerned and involved in their children's schools are more likely to spend time interacting with them.  It is the worthless parents who don't pay attention to such things that buy babysitters labeled "Xbox" and "Wii."


Truly, I wonder if you know _anyone_ who both earns 2X+ of the median income and has school-aged kids.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@MattL11 @roo_ster 

in as much as you are correct Matt, the argument roo_ster is making is ridiculous bordering on the absurd, I'll make the following counterpoint:
as property taxes are the primary funding source for public schools, show how any resident in the school district is NOT paying property taxes.

they are, ergo your point is moot.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@TheRuddSki Fair enough, incompetent is probably a bridge too far on this point.  Less-than-fully-competent, then.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog Mavdog to English translation: "I love teachers and won't admit that any of them could ever be incompetent, even when they admit to it explicitly."

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

Yes, I see him as a positive model of critical thinking.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

what do you not understand in the phrase "suspended from classroon use"?

the books cannot be a part of any classroom activities.

wow, how daft.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@roo_ster @RTGolden1 Another question that comes up from your response.  What does 2x the median income have to do anything?


Most of my family makes that, some of my friends do, almost all of my clients do.  I haven't seen that their income has any bearing on their level of interest and/or involvement in their kids' school activities or curriculum.  Those that I know, including myself, who don't quite make the financial cutoff you set, are just as likely to be involved parents as those who do earn said income.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@roo_ster @RTGolden1 Amazing, from reading a lot of your posts, I assumed stereotypes where the only thing you recognized as human characteristics.

I was merely answering your stark stereotypical comments with equally stark and stereotypical arguments.  the truth, as always, would probably lie somewhere in the grey area in between.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

"Below average" works.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps 

if that is what you distilled from my correcting your obvious error, it's no wonder you have such an issue with being factual.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

Yes, I see him as a positive model of critical thinking

all I can say is you have a very, very low bar set for a "positive model"

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @TheRuddSki I don't think "cannot be part of any activities" follows from "suspended from classroom use."  


Suspended from classroom use reasonably means that the teacher can't assign any work from them, recommend them or use them for examples in class.


That doesn't mean that if a student asks a question about the book, the teacher can't answer it.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

The books removed from the list are neither banned from consumption or discussion in the classroom.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@TheRuddSki See, now we are back to disagreeing.  I think that not bothering to read the books is quite average for teachers.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @TheRuddSki  He's basing it off what qualifies as a positive model" in the DO.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

The books can be read and discussed. Get over it.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

The books removed from the list are neither banned from consumption or discussion in the classroom.

you are correct on the former as the books were kept available in the library for students to read on their own.

you are incorrect on the later as their use in the classroom was prohibited (and now allowed).

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

Which would be the less-than-stellar guy whose intelligence failed, probably.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

the books were not allowed to be discussed in the classroom, their use in the classroom was prohibited.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

right, all the quotes from the Super were not accurate.

odd that you believe can tell us what is occuring here in North Texas while you are where? not in NTX?

you're wrong.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

Yes Mav, I can tell what is occurring in N Texas, even when I'm overseas.

Ask me how!

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

ok, then show a quote from a school district representitive that says the books were able to be discussed in the classroom while their use in the classroom was suspended...

I'll be eagerly waiting.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

The books are not banned. If a lad wants to read then discuss, he can.

Have you ever put kids through school?

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

still waiting for the confirmation from you the books suspended from classroom use were able to be discussed in the classroom....what's wrong, can you not search the net and find it?

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

I speak from personal experience Texas schools (3 kids), and what I've been told by close friends who were Texas schoolteachers.

We had this issue at Lamar years ago, books removed from summer list, books were read and discussed regardless.

I'm sorry.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

are you saying that you do not have anything at all that supports your comments that in spite of the books being "suspended from classroom use" in HPISD they were allowed to be used in classroom discussion in HPISD during the suspension?

go figure...

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

The books can be read and discussed.

They are not banned.

Call the damn school and ask what the punishment is for reading and/or discussing the books.

It'll be the same as Arlington. Nothing. Teachers and students have certain leeway, even under Secretary of Education Bill Gates. Trust me, I've been there, have you?

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

yes, I've "been there".

I've been to the Park Cities, too.

I've also spoken to parents involved in this bruhaha.

I've also read the statement by the Super that the books were "suspended from classroom use", and the books would not be used in any classroom, period.

let me know when you find anything factual that supports your position...

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

i wonder if a teacher would be fired for discussing a book that was never banned from discussion.

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