Groundbreaking Research Aims to Expand Our Knowledge of Abortion Stigma


Abortion stigma—the belief that abortion is socially or morally unacceptable—permeates every level of our culture. Experts note the presence of such stigma in the myths and mischaracterizations of abortion in the media. Researchers find it in the marginalization of the procedure within health-care facilities, as well as in the silence around abortion in communities, families, and friendships. And policymakers reinforce it on a state, national, and global level through restrictive legislation. Even so, compared with other types of widespread societal shaming, such as those surrounding mental illness or HIV, abortion stigma has received relatively little scholarly attention.

This is almost certainly a result of the stigma’s effect on the academic community. “When we began work on abortion stigma in 2008, we found that it was under-researched and under-theorized—and I think that stems from the marginalization of abortion both within funding circles and in the global public health arena,” said Leila Hessini, director of community engagement work and co-leader of the stigma and awareness project at the global nonprofit Ipas. Indeed, many scholars report difficulty in finding resources and funding to study abortion.

In turn, this lack of support means pro-choice activists and organizations don’t know as much as we could about who experiences abortion stigma, how they experience it, and what the consequences are—leaving us ill-prepared to prevent and combat it.

“For years, researchers, advocates, and policymakers have stumbled over stigma in working toward improving women’s reproductive and sexual health and rights,” confirmed Kristen Shellenberg, senior researcher at Ipas.

In an effort to broaden the discussion around abortion stigma and spark further research and critical thinking, scholars from our own Sea Change Program, as well as Ipas and the University of California, San Francisco-affiliated research group Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH), envisioned a special issue of an academic journal entirely focusing on abortion and stigma. After two years of work, the special issue of Women and Health has been published, and all articles are free to access until March 2015.

In one piece, Adrianne Nickerson, Ruth Manski, and Amanda Dennis of the research nonprofit Ibis Reproductive Health uncovered how stigma manifests in the individual attitudes of low-income women in the United States seeking abortion services. The Sea Change Program’s Annik M. Sorhaindo, meanwhile, explored with her co-authors the stigma that men and women in Mexico see and experience in their communities when they try to obtain abortion care.

Two other articles provided new ways of measuring abortion stigma—a crucial area of study, as such measurements will allow activists and advocates to evaluate whether interventions are actually effective at decreasing stigmatizing attitudes, behaviors, and beliefs. To this effect, Ipas’ Shellenberg, Leila Hessini, and Brooke A. Levandowski used focus groups of community members in Ghana and Zambia to develop a scale of attitudes toward women who have abortions in those countries. In the United States, Lisa Martin and her colleagues tested an instrument to assess the stigma of abortion among providers.

Building on these objective studies, three commentaries examined stigma’s long-ranging consequences on a national scale and proposed ways to combat it. ANSIRH’s Carole Joffe described the harassment, regulation, and marginalization of abortion providers since Roe v. Wade. Hessini and colleagues refined the definition of abortion stigma and outlined a set of priority questions for later research and programmatic efforts. And the Sea Change Program’s Kate Cockrill explored a world without stigma and called for a collective vision to guide researchers, advocates, and practitioners toward this future.

The organizers of the project hope that the issue of Women and Health both inspires and supports other academics interested in studying abortion stigma. As the co-editors told RH Reality Check, “This special issue was just the beginning. We are trying to spark a movement of individuals and organizations working to understand and mitigate abortion stigma at local, regional, and global levels.”

Rather than identifying stigma only as a barrier to getting an abortion, the co-editors say that the research in the special issue of the journal is a move toward understanding what abortion stigma is, what the consequences are, and what advocates can do about it.

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  • Recall Abortion

    Abortion stigma exists because abortion is morally and socially unacceptable. That will never change, no matter how many pro-abortion researchers publish studies.

    • Nessie

      No one is “Pro-abortion”; we are not arguing that every pregnancy should be terminated.
      You know what’s truly “morally and socially unacceptable”? Denying living woman their right to bodily autonomy. No person, born or otherwise, has the right to use another person’s body against their will.
      If you truly wanted to reduce abortion rates, then you’d be joining pro-choice activists in advocating for comprehensive sex education and improved contraception access. Outlawing abortion does nothing to reduce abortion rates.

    • fiona64

      Abortion stigma exists because abortion is morally and socially unacceptable.

      Because people like you are determined to shame women who seek to terminate pregnancies, regardless of their reasons.

      The “stigma” is your fault. Pregnancy is far more dangerous than abortion; where is your outrage?

      • Jennifer Starr

        It’s another woman with a badly written self-published book, like Rita.

        • fiona64

          I might have known she was a hard-core Catholic; the “author” is the executive director of “Priests for Life.”

          What the hell is the matter with these individuals? No one is dragging them out and forcing them to terminate their pregnancies, so why are they so determined to force other people to gestate against their wills?

      • Nordog6561

        Well, when the mark that you’ve been unsuccessful in your task is the presence of a healthy baby refusing to die, perhaps stigma is deserved.

        • Jennifer Starr

          No one’s talking about babies.

          • Nordog6561

            Sure we are.

            Jennifer, if you go for an abortion, and the result of that abortion is that you go home with a healthy baby that had been (previous to the abortion) in your womb, was the abortion successful?

            Of course not.

            When the mark that you’ve been unsuccessful in your task is the presence of a healthy baby refusing to die, perhaps stigma is deserved.

            Now, not all abortions are about “babies” defined in a certain manner.

            But every abortion prevents the life of a baby by killing an innocent human being.

            Stigma is the least such actions should be required to endure.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Jennifer, if you go for an abortion, and the result of that abortion is that you go home with a healthy baby that had previous to the abortion had been in your womb, was the abortion successful?

            The intent of an abortion is to no longer be pregnant. A live birth would end the pregnancy. The woman, who would no longer be pregnant, can walk away and leave the baby in the care of others. Over 90% of abortions take place during the first trimester though, which makes this rather pointless.

          • Nordog6561

            Good one! (Not really.)

            Except, the intent of abortion is to no longer be pregnant by killing the child in the womb.

            Abortion does not deliver live births.

            The fact remains, an abortion is a failure if a health baby results.

    • Guest

      The “morality” of abortion is subjective. How “socially” unacceptable it is a matter of examination, which is overall the point of this survey. One need not be “pro-abortion,” a term you are likely using wrongly, to do this.

      Since so many have abortions, support its legality etc., just how “socially acceptable” it is seems unclear. Divining if it will be socially unacceptable generally for all time is an act of dubious prophecy.

      • JamieHaman

        How would you define “pro-abortion” then, if she is using the phrase “wrongly”?
        Personally, I define it as: The frst, or favored, response to every unplanned pregnancy, without or with minimal discussion of other options.”
        That’s not how it’s defined elseware. ” in favor of the availability of medically induced abortion as a means of ending a pregnancy.”
        There’s a very real, very large difference between the two.

        • Joe Paulson

          “Likely” using it wrongly.

          I think she leans more toward the first definition. I don’t know the stance of the researchers here. Don’t think they support that. Not that I know what they believe specifically.

          The first definition is pretty bad. The second sounds more like being pro-abortion choice. I support various “choices” without being “pro” them. I don’t think cigs should be illegal. Am I “pro” cigarettes?

          I think being “pro” abortion sounds like someone likes abortions as a whole though it being the “favored” choice in every case might be a bit much. Disagree no one is “pro-abortion” though don’t think many are. My only caveat there would be that for certain cases, such as rape or severe birth defects, some people probably do pretty strongly think abortion is the appropriate choice.

          The term “pro-abortion” is misleading. Be glad if she clarifies.

          • lady_black

            I strongly believe abortion is the “right” choice when that’s what the woman wants. It shouldn’t be shoved at her. EVER. Neither should parenting or adoption. All have their pros and cons.

          • Joe Paulson

            That’s fine. I wonder though — can a woman ever “want” something that they are wrong about? Is abortion, unlike a bad marriage etc., some exception where people can — quite rightly since freedom means that — not make wrong choices?

            I’m pro-abortion choice myself, but like any number of decisions, I think sometimes people make wrong choices. If that is what “right” means — the ability to make a choice that might be misguided — that’s fine. It helps to be clear about these things sometimes.

          • night porter

            Protecting one’s bodily autonomy and health is never a wrong choice.

            Tell me how much you’d like to go through up to 3 days of torturous pain and then have a melon violently shoved up your nether regions.

            Or alternatively, have someone take a scalplel to your abdomen.

            No thanks.

          • Joe Paulson

            Men and women sometimes make wrong choices when they do things that they think “protects their bodily autonomy and health.” I already noted I support the right to make decisions here.

          • night porter

            You are suggesting that women are de facto in the wrong to protect their bodies from fetuses, are you not?

          • Joe Paulson

            No, I’m not. I’m saying they — in either direction — might make mistakes. They are human. But, it’s their call.

            BTW, since most abortions occur early in the pregnancy, I think “fetus” is somewhat misleading. I prefer “embryo.”

          • night porter

            I usually use “prenate”, as it covers every stage.

          • lady_black

            It doesn’t MATTER if you think it’s a mistake, unless someone asks your advice. And then remember they don’t have to listen to you. The goal should be to focus on what THEY think. I went through this with my brother’s first wife. She asked me if I thought she should marry him. My answer was that she had to make that decision, and she must know. I didn’t think ANY woman should marry my brother. He’s an ass. But she loved him. If it’s a mistake, the person will come to know that on their own. Everyone makes mistakes. The important thing isn’t that you make a mistake. The important thing is that you learn from it and don’t repeat it.

          • lady_black

            Well, of course you’re free to make bad choices, Joe. And you don’t get to decide whether someone else is “misguided.” Giving birth can be a very BAD choice, too. Haven’t you ever seen an “out of control teen” show on Maury? Teens who get pregnant have made a very bad choice. No one questions the right to give birth. But it’s not always a sound idea.

          • Joe Paulson

            By saying it is “not always a sound idea,” it sounds like you are saying it is “misguided” while noting it’s still their choice. Yup.

          • lady_black

            No, Joe. I’m saying it doesn’t matter what I think. What I think is immaterial. It matters what the person doing the action thinks. For example, If a friend is wearing a dress that I think is hideous, and asks my opinion, the answer would be “Well, do YOU like it? If the friend persists, I would find something non-committal to say, such as “The color is nice” or something like that. If you try hard enough, you can find something nice to say about almost anything, without lying. You don’t want to deliberately hurt someone’s feelings.

          • Joe Paulson

            You said I don’t get the chance to decide if something is “misguided,” but you decided when something was “not a sound idea” — I really don’t see the difference. I never said that the woman here doesn’t have the ultimate choice.

            The dress example is off to me. We make important decisions by applying all our wisdom to our own situation. It’s our call, but it is not something we decide all by our lonesome. We repeatedly in key decisions get assistance from people we trust and care about — best friends, siblings, parents, religious figures etc. In fact, many women do that with fashion choices — their call, but input from people they trust matter.

            Sometimes, men or women might not think very clearly there & you know, a best friend etc. might save them from a bad fashion choice. No need to be cruel about it, but if someone you love, e.g., is going to make a real bad choice, sometimes, yes, you say something to them.

            My comments here might seem a bit obvious to the audience — sure we get to make bad choices etc., but it doesn’t seem obvious to some. You know the whole “abortion regret” thing. But, yeah, people sometimes regret choices they made. Some people regret getting married, having kids, or any other major choice. It’s still their call, even if they might have made a bad choice. Even if we think it’s a bad idea — like a teenager having a baby — it is still their choice. It’s okay to think, but not force our ideas on to people.

            Since protecting us from ourselves is a continuing trope of the anti-choice community (in a range of ways), I think the point needs to be made over and over again.

          • JamieHaman

            For a lot of so called pro life (read forced birther) people, if you don’t think cigs should be illegal, that would automatically make you a “pro-cigarette” person.
            It’s the same with medical choice. If you support the right to make your own medical decisions, without the various churches, and uninformed state legislatures interferring to the nth degree, then that automatically makes you a “pro-abortion” person.
            This type of person doesn’t seem to grasp that keeping a medical procedure safe, and legal, doesn’t mean pushing that procedure on anyone.
            No do they comprehend that we could dramatically lower abortion rates by improving sexual education, contraception availability, and common sense. But, that’s a discussion for another day.

    • P. McCoy

      What is morally and socially unacceptible are zealots interferring in the sex lives and medical decisions of people they don’t know and committing acts of terrorism to try to change the government to a draconian theocracy.

      Against abortion? Then DON’T HAVE ONE!

      • Joe Paulson

        The ultimate issue here is not “inferring” via terrorism or laws, I thought, but stigma that is a means of moral pressure against certain legal actions that society thinks improper. Granted the road from stigma to burdensome laws and worse can be short.

        Simply put, the norm around here is that it is wrong to stigmatize people for having an abortion as compared to something like being a horrible person. OTOH, for certain things, people do think stigmatizing is okay. For instance, stigmatizing racists. They don’t just say “hey I can be one, if you don’t like racists, don’t be one! leave me alone though!’

        • P. McCoy

          People can stigma against abortion if they wish- my beef is when they act out in acts of harassment , vandalism and murder in short acts of terrorism and abuse the Constitution’s freedoms of religion and speech in order to force their ideology whether it comes from religion or secularist beliefs onto others. Racism is stigmatized but condoned in the reality; it’s subtly rewarded and encouraged right now, whether setting the ‘fix’ right now so that Officer Wilson is not indicted for the shooting of Michael Brown or preventing non Whites from voting via Jim Crow voter registration ‘id’ laws or manipulating the law so as to muzzle Political (victim of Cointelpro) prisoner Mumia Jamal.

          America runs by its gun nuts, White Supremacists and Conservative.religious fanatics, the latter will never be satisfied until a Christian fascist empire becomes the dominant governing reality . Changing that reality is the work of those wanting changes in the Constitution and society.
          One example- protest Pope Francis coming to the states. He represents an ideology imicable to LGBT people, secularists, Christian progressives and Women who want to preserve their bodily rights. He belongs in the World.Coury docket and too much emphasis is made on the onerous cult doings of Catholicism. We don’t follow the every breath of other religions and this is discrimatory.

        • JamieHaman

          Let’s start with the racism. Huge difference between how living breathing people are treated, via Jim Crow laws, Separate but Equal laws, etc. (that list is huge) and a medical decision made privately, and pertaining to one living breathing human being. The two issues are not the same at all.
          Concerning abortion: Interference via harrassment, and laws, not to mention out and out murder has been ongoing for a long long time. When women are shamed for their abortion, (no matter the reason for that abortion), it puts women in the position of being: bad, evil, witches, murderers, (another huge list), in other words, sub-human once again. Just in case you haven’t noticed, killing sub-humans in this country generally isn’t a big deal.
          We all “know” that the bad, evil, lying witches, murderers etc. should be stopped, and for some people, it really doesn’t matter how that evilness is stopped. Easy to shame, easy to kill.
          A medical decision, is a private matter. Racism is never private, racism affects living breathing people.

          • Joe Paulson

            To be clear, I’m not saying they are “the same” — I’m showing how something can be “stigmatized” w/o being illegal or be subject to terrorism and the like. Your comment moves from my generalized comment to the merits. It reads a bit like you think I have to be reminded of things that I am well aware of. But, to the degree such things are not known enough, fine for you to state them.

          • lady_black

            That’s the great thing about maturity. You never allow others to shame you, and you couldn’t care less what people think about you. Why should you? The stigma exists because too many women don’t have the balls to tell the sloot-shamers to sit down and shut the hell up. It’s none of their damn business, and they should be told that in no uncertain terms. There will always be clods who ask personal questions. The answer should always be “Why do you need to know?” It’s not rude to do so, but it places the burden squarely back on the shoulders of the person who’s got no sense of boundaries. If they persist, they should be told in plain language it’s none of their business, or the subject changed.

        • Shan

          Stigma involves shaming. Racists are apparently not experiencing any shame since they haven’t stopped speaking up and identifying themselves as racists, so I don’t see how they are being stigmatized anywhere.

          • Joe Paulson

            Is this really true? Over time, racism as a whole — obviously not enough — become much less socially acceptable. We see this in fact by some who are quite upset when called racists — once upon a time, it would be those calling out racism that felt uncomfortable.

          • Shan

            Maybe racist *laws* have become more socially unacceptable but racist attitudes are alive and well. According to the SPLC, there’s been a 56% rise in the number of hate groups since 2000.

            http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/hate-and-extremism

            “This surge has been fueled by anger and fear over the nation’s ailing economy, an influx of non-white immigrants, and the diminishing white majority, as symbolized by the election of the nation’s first African-American president.”

            And from the same article:

            “The number of Patriot groups, including armed militias, skyrocketed following the election of President Obama in 2008 – rising 813 percent, from 149 groups in 2008 to an all-time high of 1,360 in 2012. The number fell to 1,096 in 2013.

            But merely calling someone out as a hateful a$$hole doesn’t cause them to experience stigma. They don’t tend to feel guilty about their behavior and they don’t tend to be ostracized. They generally just keep on doing it.

            Unlike the issue of abortion where we have tens of millions of women over the decades who have had AN abortion but who are still, years later, afraid to speak about their experience even with their closest family members. There are no “1-in-3″ campaigns for racists who feel the need to finally tell their stories for themselves or to help others; they already have PLENTY of platforms in the mainstream media.

          • Joe Paulson

            I said “obviously not enough” — so citing data that shows racism still exists is somewhat non-responsive. Compare today with a few decades ago. Racism is much less acceptable. It is telling that people on FOX or the like are annoyed at being called racists. It is embarrassing and they want it to stop. There is stigma.

            Ever hear the line that prejudice against homosexuals is the only “acceptable” one these days? The line, said often by supporters of gay rights to show how bad things are, doesn’t make much sense if racism is not to some large degree stigmatizing. Many older people very well over the years changed their mind and said they are at least somewhat embarrassed for old racist views.

            I’m not trying to say abortion stigma isn’t a major problem or anything. My point holds — talking about stigma is not the same thing as terrorism. They aren’t quite the same thing.

          • Shan

            “My point holds — talking about stigma is not the same thing as terrorism.”

            Why are you even saying that?

        • lady_black

          The fact is that people are allowed to be racist. Personally, I don’t have to tolerate racism, but they have as much right to speak their mind as I do.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      These are the rules about abortion that JESUS followed. You or Jesus? I will stick with Jesus.

      Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

      An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.

      • Joe Paulson

        “Sacred Choices” by Daniel C. Maguire is one good book that explains the various positions of religious faiths on this topic. To me, abortion is largely a matter of religious faith — as Planned Parenthood v. Casey noted, it is a matter of “conscience” that society divides over but individual choice.

        I’m sure RA disputes your religious analysis here as she can. OTOH, it’s a step beyond to establish her faith over the one expressed here.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I point out Jewish law not for its ‘sacred’ value but for its value as proof that abortion is not ‘morally and socially unacceptable.’

          If it keeps beating the ‘morally and socially unacceptable’ drum, I have more proof that assertion is incorrect. Lots more proof.

          But my plan is to unveil those proofs one by one, as it keeps beating its drum, until its point dies the death of a thousand cuts.

          One can find the different positions of the various religions online at religioustolerance.org. I have more than religious proof.

        • lady_black

          If RA isn’t Jewish, RA has no clue. Christianity mangles too many things contained in the Hebrew scriptures. For example, the word soul is translated from the Hebrew “nephesh” which relates to breath and breathing. A soul is a physical body from first breath to last, not some unobservable element of a human being.

      • lady_black

        Even as an atheist, that makes sense to me as a very ethical guideline. The folks over at SPL view me as some kind of murdering monster. Obviously, I’m not. I couldn’t choose between one born life and another, we must attempt to save both if possible. Given the choice between rescuing a single child or a freezer containing hundreds of embryos in a fire, I would pick the child (or adult) every single time to rescue. Either one has been proved to be human enough to survive as a humans. Embryos? Pffft. Who knows? Nobody. There is no way other than birth to tell that. Even a newborn can look perfect on the outside, but that doesn’t mean perfect on the inside.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I so agree. They refuse to understand that life is triage. We do the best we can. These zealots have very high standards – for others.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Women have abortions. That will always happen no matter how tightly you clutch your pearls.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Wrong. And no here is pro-abortion, Janet–we are pro-choice.

  • anja

    The stigma only exists because of people like the “Recall Abortion” anti social troll who posted below.

  • night porter

    Pro-lifers also want there to be a stigma against non-procreative sex. The two go hand in hand. And this unhealthy attitude towards sexuality is exactly what leads to more abortions…

    • Ella Warnock

      Growing up fundie, it’s pounded into a girl’s head like nothing else that pregnancy outside of marriage is The. Most. Heinous. Sin. Ever. So, of course, good little christian girls go off to college, have sex, and get abortions.

      The irrationality of the fundies’ position on sex actually manufactures more opportunities for abortion, since there’s no way many of these girls are going to put themselves in the unenviable position of having to ‘fess up to being single and sexually active. As usual, and in a myriad of ways, fundies are their own worst enemies.

      • night porter

        Yes, there were some supposed pro choice men arguing in favour of parental consent laws over on MJ last week – their argument is that there must be a stigmt attached to both teen pregnancy and abortion.

        • Ella Warnock

          Then obviously they’re supporting *more* teen pregnancy and abortion. Go them. ::rolleyes::

        • lady_black

          Ugh. That reminds me of my republican brother. He’s such an ass. He was against Plan B being made available OTC to teens because “there should be consequences for teen sex.” I asked him where the consequences were for HIM having sex as a teen.

          • JamieHaman

            So glad you asked your brother the question! So fricking many people act like teen girls get pregnant all by themselves. Then they say she should be the only one who has to deal with the consequences, because “she trapped him.”

          • lady_black

            No, I never speak to him. I didn’t ask him anything, because there is no possible cogent answer. My sister told me what he said. She, being a parent of a post pubescent daughter, naturally doesn’t agree with him either.

          • Arekushieru

            Which is even more grotesque when you consider that those who say ‘she trapped him’ are also often those that believe women should be seen (and sometimes not even that) and not heard. In other words, they love to make sure women can’t win either way. So fucking sad.

    • Nordog6561

      >>Pro-lifers also want there to be a stigma against non-procreative sex. The two go hand in hand. And this unhealthy attitude towards sexuality is exactly what leads to more abortions…<<

      Yep.

      Treating fertility like it was a disease is a major part of the Culture of Death of which abortion is a sacrament.

      • night porter

        Oh please. Treating fertility like it is – something that is potentially dangerous and can potentially ruin someone’s life – that’s reality, bucko

        You know as well as we do that without contraception and yes, abortion, women are basically reduced to breeding slaves, Afghanistan style.

        • Nordog6561

          You actually demonstrate my very point.

          And you do so gladly and openly.

          But then you go further.

          Not only do you treat fertility as a disease, you equate the absence of chemical castration and in utero vivisection with slavery and, one supposes, the Taliban.

          To claim that human freedom requires the unfettered ability to kill the innocent human life in the womb is to demonstrate an abject state of intellectual and moral corruption.

          • night porter

            Pregnancy isn’t safe for women. This is a fact.

            Why do you want to kill and harm women?

          • Nordog6561

            Life isn’t safe for anyone (but especially for the unborn around you).

            Why do you reduce the creation of new human life to the lie that it means nothing other than killing women?

            >>Pregnancy isn’t safe for women. This is a fact.

            Why do you want to kill and harm women?<<

            So that's the choice in your fetid mind?

            Kill all unborn babies or otherwise produce no more children or you advocate killing women?

            You're a ghoul.

            A sick perverted ghoul.

          • night porter

            So what. We don’t force peopl to risk their lives and health fo others. Donated your kidney to a dying 13 year old yet?

            Yeah, thought not. You value your own health above a precious human life.

            Hypocrite.

          • Nordog6561

            You really are sick.

            Now, in your sewer of a mind, an unborn child is no different than a failed kidney.

            How long before you call it a tumor?

            Go ahead, you know you want to.

            The good news for you is that you have the legal positive right to kill away at your discretion.

          • night porter

            Why do you want to kill women?

          • Nordog6561

            >>Why do you want to kill women?<<

            Why do you want to have sex with animals?

            You're an idiot. Your question is imbecilic, like you.

          • night porter

            Psycho mother killer.

          • Nordog6561

            LOL

            Sounds like you’ve been smoking pot and listening to Alice’s Restaurant.

            Actually, I’m a psycho MOTH killer. I hate what they do to cashmere.

          • night porter

            No. You are a psycho mother killer.

          • Nordog6561

            One really understands the nature of insanity when one looks upon you and sees how you’ve turned killing into “freedom” and defense of life into “psycho mother killer”.

            You are demented beyond imagining.

          • night porter

            Citation. Needed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’ve never smoked anything and I’m listening to Mozart’s The Magic Flute.

          • expect_resistance

            If he keps posting here we need to start a new bingo game. Ghoul is one point. Blood and some of the other random crap is also one point. What’s a good double point word?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Next I’m going to watch The Love Boat. Ah, the excitement.

          • Ella Warnock

            Uh-oh, you know those people on the Love Boat were probably treating their fertility like a disease. You should be watching the 20-some-odd kids and counting show train wreck where they treat THEIR fertility like the religious idolatry circus it is. You could be learning how to worship your fertility – so edifying!

          • night porter

            I’m watching the PINKO BROADCASTING SERVICE right now.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why do you want to kill women? Don’t dodge the question.

          • Nordog6561

            Why do you want to have sex with large dogs? Don’t dodge the question.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why do you want to have sex with large dogs?

            Such strange fantasies you have. Have you spoken to a psychiatrist about them?

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, it is calling itself ‘norDOG’ so there does seem to be some sort of obsession with the perversity of women sexing up large dogs. I guess that’s a titillating thought or something. Or maybe it’s just some Tourette’s thing. Who knows, or really cares? It’s the only one who has to live daily in that cesspool, so let’s be thankful it’s limited to the inside of that unhappy noggin. It believes in demons, too, so there’s that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He wants women to risk their lives for pregnancy, safe and secure in the knowledge that it’s a risk he’ll never have to take.

          • Nordog6561

            No, I just deny the lie that the deliberate and willed killing of the unborn is never morally licit.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you’re perfectly free to make that decision about any pregnancies that you gestate inside your own body. Can’t say fairer than that.

          • Nordog6561

            Hey, don’t like slavery? Don’t own slaves!

            Hey, don’t like the Jewish Holocaust? Don’t gas jews!

            Hey, don’t like abortion? Don’t chop up babies in the womb!

            What passes for intellectual and moral calculus in you mind is really repugnant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Slaves and Jews weren’t inside someone else’s body and attached by an umbilical cord. If you want to talk about the holocaust, look up Dr Lila Perl, who helped women have abortions while in the camps. And slave women who were forcibly impregnated by their masters found ways to end their pregnancies with herbs.

          • Nordog6561

            So what?

            So nothing. That’s what.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why nothing? Do facts upset you? Do you think that slave women and women in Auschwitz committed murder by ending their pregnancies?

          • Nordog6561

            >>Do you think that slave women and women in Auschwitz committed murder by ending their pregnancies?<<

            If they willed the death of the life within them, yes, then they murdered that life.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So what do you think should have happened to them as a consequence?

          • Nordog6561

            You mean besides being freed from slavery and extermination camps?

            What do you think should happen to people who kill?

            Oh, I forgot, you think they’re freedom fighters or something. So you probably want to give them an award.

            But I’m sure you take solace in the fact that the extreme case of murder by a victim of a death camp presents a heart wrenching story.

            What should happen to anyone who murders under such situations?

            I don’t know, but it doesn’t change the fact that we are talking about murder.

          • lady_black

            No actually we aren’t talking about murder. Murder has a definition. Aborting doesn’t fit the definition.

          • lady_black

            Apologist for the rights of rapists to select the broodmare that carries their seed. Nothing you say surprises me, you sick slob.

          • fiona64

            I remember when I thought those arguments were brilliant.

            Then I got out of high school.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Then I got out of high school.<<

            I hear that was the longest 8 years of your life.

          • fiona64

            You know, sweetie, I really am sorry.

            About your microphallus, I mean.

          • Nordog6561

            LOL

          • fiona64

            Yep, I am LOLing, all right … at your microphallus.

            I imagine that’s a reaction to which you’ve become accustomed by now …

          • lady_black

            That’s too bad. I think the killing of the born, by the unborn is never morally licit.

          • Nordog6561

            Because you’re an idiot ghoul who doesn’t understand that the unborn are not moral agents.

            People don’t become moral agents until many years after they are potty trained, but you wouldn’t know that, what with your treating fertility like a disease you couldn’t know that.

          • lady_black

            It doesn’t matter that they aren’t “moral agents” Sparky. And if they aren’t moral agents, stop calling them “innocent.” That implies moral agency where I agree, none exists. You wouldn’t allow yourself to be killed by a grizzly bear, would you? You wouldn’t allow yourself to be killed by an infection, either. You would fight back. I know you would. Yet neither grizzly bears nor bacteria are “moral agents.” The fact is, when something threatens you, you defend yourself, and don’t WASTE TIME contemplating whether or not the attacker is a “moral agent.” By your twisted logic, I’d have to allow a 40 year old man with the mind of a three year old to complete a rape and refrain from killing the son of a bitch, because he’s “not a moral agent.” HA!! Just watch me.

          • night porter

            I await the inevitable ‘but bacteria and grizzly bears are not precious human babies’

            I love that bit of goalpost shifting, can count on it every time.

          • lady_black

            Special pleading for the zef won’t cut it. That’s a fallacy. Either you have a right to defend yourself from non-moral agents, or you don’t.

          • night porter

            They twist themselves into pretzels with the special pleading for zefs.

          • night porter

            Oh, forgot to add, my fave is “pregnancy is totally unique, and nothing is like it, but you can bet that if something was, id want to subjugate those people too, but since nothing is, tough luck ladies!!!!”

          • Nessie

            And when you bring up the fact that much of a polar bear’s or bacterium’s genome is identical to that of a human…

          • night porter

            Even amongst secular pro lifers, there appears to be a belief in human exceptionalism and special snowflakeness.

            It’s a belief in a soul wrapped up in secular language.

          • Nessie

            As I said on a different thread, it’s no coincidence that so many pro-lifers are evolution deniers.

          • Nordog6561

            >>And if they aren’t moral agents, stop calling them “innocent.”<<

            Only a moral agent can be guilty. The non-guilty are by definition, innocent.

            Man you're obtuse.

            Wickedly so.

          • expect_resistance

            How much did you have to drink today? You sound messed up.

          • lady_black

            A non-moral agent can be neither “innocent” nor “guilty.” Fetuses, grizzly bears, and bacteria are not moral agents. There is no such thing as an “innocent” fetus, grizzly bear, or bacteria. There is no such thing as a “guilty” fetus, grizzly bear or bacteria. And we’ve already established that when one is attacked, moral agency isn’t a legitimate consideration. You have a right to defend yourself whether the attacker is a moral agent or not. You’re engaging in the fallacy of special pleading. But only for fetuses. It doesn’t work that way. Either you can defend yourself from a non-moral entity, or you can’t. In which case, you would have to allow the grizzly bear or infection kill you, because neither is a moral agent, and therefore doesn’t know better. You would have to let the 40 year old man with the mentality of a 3 year old rape you, because HE isn’t a moral agent either. Life doesn’t work that way.

          • Nordog6561

            Well, you’ll see fit to categorize those you kill any way you choose. That’s part of choice.

          • fiona64

            The non-guilty are by definition, innocent.

            Looks like someone gets his education on legal matters via television.

            Hint: someone being “not guilty” does NOT mean they are innocent.

            An embryo is not conscious; it therefore lacks the capacity for either guilt *or* innocence.

            Of what is the *woman* guilty? You know, the person you keep erasing from the picture.

            I guess I should clarify, though: of what is the woman guilty … aside from sleeping with a man who isn’t *you.*

          • Nordog6561

            You have a rich fantasy life.

            Bent, but rich.

          • fiona64

            You know, I took a gander at your Disqus profile just for fun.

            Not only are you a misogynist, but you’re also a homophobe and a racist.

            Not that I’m surprised by any of this. Misogyny and homophobia come from having very rigid concepts about gender roles. Racism is, of course, just more garden-variety bigotry.

            Go back to LieSiteSpews so Calvin will kiss your ass and give you Martyr Points for coming over here. Your ilk makes me sick.

          • Nordog6561

            >> but you’re also a homophobe <<

            Oh. Stop. You're scaring me.

            (yawn)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The unborn? Kind of like THE UNDEAD?

          • night porter

            I can’t take him seriously. He is a nutjob who is not worth any actual effort.

          • Jennifer Starr

            True. He is sort of fun to wind up,though.

          • Nordog6561

            So, how many babies have you killed?

            How many drinks does it take before the “stigma” wears off?

          • night porter

            Your tinfoil hat is on too tight.

          • Nordog6561

            Don’t dodge the question.

            How many abortions?

            How many drinks?

          • night porter

            I disagree

          • Nordog6561

            How many abortions have you had?

            How many drinks does it take to shake the “stigma”?

          • night porter

            1,000,900

          • Nordog6561

            Figures.

          • night porter

            Indeed!!!!!

          • Nordog6561

            Yes, in foul deed.

          • night porter

            You are a wordsmith!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, I had twenty. Or was it thirty? Anyway, I had all of them done at once, because you get a special package deal and a luxury vacation thrown in for nothing.

          • Nordog6561

            No wonder you’re such a lush.

            But really, why do you want to have sex with dogs?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I am? Gee, that’s a surprise.

          • expect_resistance

            Are you asking that because you have sex with dogs and you are asking her to join you? Wow you antis are sick and twisted. I’m into kink but draw the line with dogs. Dude you are sick.

          • Nordog6561

            Very witting comeback. Did you think that up yourself?

            No, it’s just that her penchant for having sex with dogs is about as close to reality as my killing women.

            The only killers around here are the pro-aborts.

            But you knew that, you’re just towing the party line.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Towing it where?

          • Nordog6561

            To the grave.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You flunked English, didn’t you?

          • Nordog6561

            You flunked biology didn’t you?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No.

          • fiona64

            That’s rich, coming from the idiot who thinks that infants exist in utero …

            It’s so easy to be an anti-choice male, isn’t it? You just wave your stupid paw and proclaim that women must risk life and health to gestate … knowing full well that you won’t be affected by the things you support.

            Talk about convenience …

          • Nordog6561

            It’s so easy to be a pro-abort ghoul woman, isn’t it? You just spread your stupid legs and command the vivisectionist to do his work (with no stigma attached naturally)… knowing full well that no one will see that mangled human baby parts stored in the freezer.

            Talk about convenience.

          • fiona64

            You should look into a career writing fiction; you have a very vivid imagination.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You typed that out one-handed, didn’t you?

          • lady_black

            No, Jethro. One tows a vehicle, or a boat on a trailer. One TOES the line. Get the picture? The two aren’t interchangeable, just like to, too and two aren’t interchangeable. Or sew, sow and so. It’s called grammar.

          • Nordog6561

            Oh, so you can be specific and correct, when it suits you.

            Interesting.

          • expect_resistance

            Lady black is always specific and correct. You on the other hand are not.

          • expect_resistance

            You need help.

          • lady_black

            No, she is not interested in sleeping with you. I imagine no one is.

          • Nordog6561

            How many times have you chopped up your children?

          • lady_black

            I have never chopped up a child, and no, I am not a garden variety drunk life yourself, either.

          • Nessie

            Nothing is “chopped up” in a legal abortion. First-trimester abortions can be performed with medication-which causes the uterus to shed embryo and lining-or by suction-which vacums the contents from the uterus. Regardless of method, the result is visually identical to period blood. In the rare case of a second-or-third-trimester abortion(a procedure which is almost-always performed in the event of maternal health complications or severe fetal defects) the fetus is often removed intact.

          • Jennifer Starr

            His most recent ‘girlfriend’ has a puncture.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There’s that fantasy again–you really need to seek psychiatric help for your bestiality issues.

          • expect_resistance

            I know I love the package deal. :)

          • expect_resistance

            So demanding. How rude of you.

          • Nordog6561

            >>How rude of you.<<

            Why is that rude? I thought the stigma was gone.

          • expect_resistance

            You demand answers, that’s rude. Where are your maners?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No one ever taught him any. No home training.

          • Nordog6561

            >> Where are your maners?<<

            They were aborted.

          • expect_resistance

            I can see you have no manners and no decency.

          • Nordog6561

            I leave manners and decency at the door when dealing with pro-aborts.

          • expect_resistance

            You’re an abuse bully who should get help before you get into trouble and are court ordered to anger management.

          • Nordog6561

            I love how Lefties love to use the courts to force people into re-education.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Something you’re personally familiar with, I imagine.

          • Nordog6561

            Yes, I’ve been the object of Leftist re-education efforts.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Thought so. Everything about you just screams criminal record.

          • lady_black

            Abusive bullies need to be “re-educated” because they have the highest recidivism rate of all offenders other than pedophiles. The difference is abusers are amenable to treatment, and pedophiles aren’t. Therefore I have no problem with abusers being forced into treatment (though I would much rather they sought treatment on their own, because it demonstrates motivation.) Treatment for abusers saves lives, including that of the abuser. Sooner or later, you will vent your anger on someone who will mess you up. No matter how badass you believe yourself to be, there’s always someone bigger and meaner than you are.

          • Nordog6561

            Whatever you say commissar.

          • Griffonn

            Just be happy it isn’t the gulag.

            (hey, are we seriously now to the point where the right to not be stigmatized for killing your own son or daughter is a civil right?)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Gulag? More histrionics please–you don’t have nearly enough to be entertaining.

          • Ella Warnock

            Shoot, I’ll forgo the explosions and car chases if it just ups the histrionics. A little spluttering and flying spittle wouldn’t hurt, either.

          • lady_black

            It’s NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Which of YOUR medical decisions will I be making? If the answer is “none” you are correct. However, that also means the number of medical decisions you make for me is also “none.”

          • Griffonn

            Abortion isn’t a medical decision.

            If it were a medical decision, the appropriate word would be “triage”, not abortion, and the baby would be saved if possible.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I would love to see you say that to this Father. Be a pleasure to watch him punch you square in the face.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo

            Get laid once. You might turn into a human being.

          • Griffonn

            I used to be the sort of person who lived from one short-term temptation to the next.

            It isn’t the path to happiness. All the Christian-scapegoating in the world can’t change the fact that if you’re the sort of person who kills your own son or daughter, you aren’t going to be happy, you’re going to loathe yourself and your whole life is going to be about not confronting the truth. That is why so many people show up for the retreats offered by various church denominations – you guys don’t care about what happens to these women after the baby is dead, you just want the dead baby and don’t care about the woman after the fact.

            You were lied to when they told you that you’d be happy if you could hump a new thing every time you feel the itch, like a dog on a pants leg. That is not how women are built. Happiness is not about indulging every appetite, ignoring the reality that appetites are function-specific. Promiscuity and abortion are like a very bloody version of bulimia.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You were lied to when they told you that you’d be happy if you could hump a new thing every time you feel the itch, like a dog on a pants leg. That is not how women are built. Happiness is not about indulging every appetite, ignoring the reality that appetites are function-specific. Promiscuity and abortion are like a very bloody version of bulimia.

            Apart from the arrogance of a man telling us ‘how women are built’, why do you make the assumption that this is the kind of life we lead?

          • Griffonn

            Because you’re the sort of people who would kill your own son or daughter.

            If you’d be willing to pay THAT for sex, you must surely have an unhealthy relationship to sex.

          • night porter

            1) An embryo is not a child

            2) forcing people to reproduce every time they have sex as ‘punishment’ for having sex is actually very unhealthy

          • Griffonn

            Do you dispute that the embryo is living or that it is human?

          • night porter

            An embryo is living and it is human, but that doesn’t give it a right to use another person’s body without explicit and ongoing consent – BECAUSE NO SUCH RIGHT EXISTS

            What is so hard to understand about that?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I must? Really? Because I was under the impression that I spent most of my time either writing for work or with my nose in a book. Isn’t it so nice, that I have you to tell me things about my personal life that even I didn’t know. Well, I’m off to complete my decadent, destructive life by doing some vacuuming and laundry. I might pop in a Scarecrow and Mrs. King DVD or maybe Charlie’s Angels to pass the time.And maybe even tea. Oh, the crazy life I lead.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am so sorry for all the bad things that have happened to you.
            I wish you what you wish me.

          • Griffonn

            Now that I have grandkids all the tough choices I have made are totally being rewarded.

            I wouldn’t trade my life for one of those dry “successful” career women.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Some women have to work. Some women do not. You resent their taking their jobs seriously? You resent women who make the choice not to be Mothers? Or to have only one or two children? You do not sound like a happy camper to me. You sound cruel. And you are into shaming/blaming. Most unattractive.

          • Griffonn

            I absolutely do not believe that women should in any way be barred or banned for work, or stigmatized for doing so.

            I am only mocking those of you who think a career can replace a family. You all find out – too late – that careers are only satisfying in that they impress people, and as you get older and people are less impressed with you, you are left with nothing.

            Also, grandchildren are the BEST thing EVER.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What do grandchildren have to do with your shytty attitude toward other women?
            What are you going to do if some of those grandchildren opt to be childfree? Take that as a referendum on your life and decisions?
            What makes you think I do not have or love my grandchildren? What makes you think I even wanted children or grandchildren. Or other women do or do not?
            If all you want to do here is shame, blame, complain, convict and fantasize about other women here or elsewhere, get lost. Creepy creep.

          • Griffonn

            I don’t think I have a bad attitude toward other women because you have still not presented any reason to suppose that “killing one’s own son or daughter” is something any woman needs, benefits from, or is anything but hurt by.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am here at the other end of your attitude toward women. You are being a shytty creepy sanctimonious biotch.
            No woman needs a reason to have an abortion beyond ‘I do not want to be pregnant.’
            No one cares how you feel about it. No one should care.
            You are ignorant, hostile and conformist. The authoritarian trifecta.

          • Griffonn

            You don’t hate me because I’m a bad person, you hate me because you have reason to fear “the Golden Rule”.

            What if I took the same attitude toward you that you take toward babies? “I don’t need a reason to kill women beyond ‘they inconvenience me’. “

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I suggest you give that a try. See what happens.

          • Griffonn

            What, killing a baby? I most certainly will NOT give that a try.

            HORRIBLE idea.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Nope. Doing unto me, Stupid.

          • Griffonn

            I was only speaking rhetorically when I talked about doing unto you what you would do unto a helpless little baby.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            If you see anyone hurting babies, you must call the cops. Call now.

          • Griffonn

            Ah yes, the “I don’t see it so it isn’t really abuse” argument.

            That one is from the wife-beater playbook too.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And be sure to turn in any woman or teenage girl who you hear has had an abortion through the neighbor’s telegraph. It is murder after all. Every one of those must be investigated. Every one of those girls must go to jail. There is no statute of limitations on murder. Call the cops right now.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Right. I sense backpedaling.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You flatter yourself. I do not hate anybody. I am too old too exert that kind of energy. Looking at you is like looking at noxious vermin = kind of revolting and it makes you glad the vermin is far away.

          • Griffonn

            You are welcome to think that I am noxious vermin if that is how you get your happiness.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Can you read? I do not think so.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Quote: I absolutely do not believe that women should in any way be barred or banned for work, or stigmatized for doing so.
            ………
            Then you should stop doing it.

          • Griffonn

            On the contrary: I am mocking people who choose work OVER or INSTEAD OF family.

            Because they are paid back for their selfishness, and I want to make an example of their dried-up old husks so that young girls see that the glamour ends in THAT.

            I mean, who wants to be Maureen Dowd when they grow up?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Damn sight better than being Phyllis Schlafly or Jill Stanek. And it’s certainly better than being a self-righteous idiot like yourself. Tell you what, why don’t you live your life and stop fretting over how others live theirs? Whether someone chooses to be married or single, whether they have no children or lots of children–it’s their business. Not mine and certainly not yours.

          • Griffonn

            It must be hard being so full of hate.

            Or is it fear? I mean, if you’re one of the people who actually kills babies, you probably have a lot of fear.

          • fiona64

            If you have any evidence that Jennifer has committed infanticide, I suggest you contact your local law enforcement and provide it to them.

            Or, you can admit what we already know: you’re a fucking liar and a busybody.

            I’ll bet your favorite hobby is “sidewalk counseling,” isn’t it?

          • Jennifer Starr

            At least I don’t feel the need to validate my life choices (family over career) by attacking those who’ve chosen differently. That shows a lot of insecurity and yes, fear– on your part.

          • Griffonn

            Yeah, I could see that in the way you spoke so respectfully about Phyllis Schlafly.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You mean the woman who made a career out of telling other women they belonged at home? I think she’s a hypocrite, and I wouldn’t want to be her, but hate? No.

          • Griffonn

            Hey you’re the one who felt the need to bring her in.

            Because you needed an object to attack.

            And you don’t even get her argument right, to boot.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You mean, like you brought in Maureen Dowd? Do you hate Maureen?

          • fiona64

            Bitter, party of Griffonn? Your table is ready …

          • Jennifer Starr

            And actually, Maureen Dowd looks pretty good for her age. Plus, she’s ginger. Gingers rock :)

          • Griffonn

            There comes a moment – somewhere around middle age – where you realize that looks are a means to an end, not the end in themselves.

            Use them wisely while your window of opportunity still exists.

          • fiona64

            There comes a moment – somewhere around middle age – where you realize that looks are a means to an end

            Spoken like someone who has let herself go …

          • Griffonn

            You guys are really obsessed with looks.

          • fiona64

            You’re the one who keeps bringing them up, sweetie, not us. You describe career women as “dried up.” You make remarks about not wanting to look like Maureen Dowd.

            And then you try to pretend it’s all our fault when we respond to you?

            One of my friends had an aunt who was kind of like you. There was a nicely dressed, well-groomed lady at her church and said aunty once said “I bet she doesn’t take care of her kids.” That aunt apparently believed, like you, that women with children should be slovenly.

            I’m sorry that you don’t bother to be well-turned out nowadays, but there is still time to do something about it.

            No love, a pro-choice mother who isn’t buying your bullshit

          • Griffonn

            So you didn’t just misread one thing I’ve said, you’ve misread a whole string of things.

          • fiona64

            There is absolutely zero subtext in what you’ve written. It’s very plain that you’re jealous of women who have careers and lives that are not as limited as yours.

            Believe it or not, I am truly sorry that you think that the only thing you’ve ever done of value is to prove that your gonads function. That has got to be a sad way to live.

          • Griffonn

            Oh so now we’re back to how I’m secretly jealous of this that and the other.

            And again you so desperately want to believe I’m the one with something to prove.

            When you’re a dried-up old prune, you will wish you hadn’t aborted your kids, and you will be so jealous of the people with descendents. Maybe you will even make yourself pathetic by trying to look thirty years younger and chase after men. High heels and support hose will go over so well in your looks-obsessed culture.

          • fiona64

            When you’re a dried-up old prune, you will wish you hadn’t aborted your kids

            My son will be amused to learn that he was aborted.

            you will be so jealous of the people with descendents

            My son will be amused to learn that he apparently does not exist. For your information, I nearly died gestating that pregnancy … and I will not be gestating any more. Should my tubal ligation fail, there will be an abortion so fast that your angry head will spin right off. You don’t get to decide how much medical risk anyone other than yourself is going to assume.

            Don’t like it? Tough shit.

            Maybe you will even make yourself pathetic by trying to look thirty years younger and chase after men

            I’m happily married, thanks. And we have lots and lots of sex without intent to procreate again. That must frost your cookies.

            And I take care of myself, which must also frost your cookies.

            Oh, wait. Now I get it … you’re angry that your husband left you for someone who actually looked after herself.

          • Griffonn

            “Dried up” refers to her life more than her face, which appears to be kept quite pumped.

          • fiona64

            Oh, so anyone who chooses to have a career has a “dried up” life according to you?

            And you want us to think this is NOT sour grapes on your part?

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • Griffonn

            Oh no, I think Maureen Dowd is special in the “dried up” department.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah these grapes are quite sour on her part. I wonder why she’s fixated on Maureen, though.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nothing wrong with choosing career and a family.
            Nothing wrong with choosing just a career
            Nothing wrong with choosing just family.

            There are no rights or wrongs here. Different strokes.

          • Griffonn

            And there’s nothing wrong with mocking people who make stupid choices.

            Go ahead: mock SAHMs and Phyllis Schlafly, just to amuse me. Then tell me I have something to prove.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Stupid choices is a matter of opinion. Maureen Dowd is an accomplished writer. I don’t think that’s stupid.

            And no, I don’t want to mock SAHMs. But why do you feel threatened by women who just choose a career?

          • Griffonn

            And Phyllis Schlafly, unlike Maureen Dowd, is not a fail at family relationships.

            We all have our priorities, and we all like to mock that which we hold to be wrong.

            I know you were told how special you were, but really you’re no different from anyone else.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why is Maureen Dowd a fail at family relationships? Do you know her personally? And no, it’s not wrong to just choose a career, just like it’s not wrong to just choose a family.

            And no, I don’t think I’m more special than anyone else. But I’m not a bitter and spiteful harridan like you, and that’s enough.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Maureen Dowd. Boy, are you stupid and mean? Wjy yes, yes -you are stupid and mean.

          • fiona64

            You all find out – too late – that careers are only satisfying in that they impress people

            Sounds like someone is *definitely* trying to convince herself that she loved being a SAHM …

          • Griffonn

            I am not a SAHM.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Daycare? Nanny? Latchkey kids?

          • Griffonn

            I find it interesting that you want to make this personal about me.

            That means something – that is, a certain type of person uses this approach, there’s a recognizable pattern – but I don’t quite get what that pattern is.

            Please: tell me more about myself, as you imagine me. Share that bogey with me.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Really? You were the one who came in here full of assumptions about our personal lives and our sex lives. The shoe doesn’t feel so great on the other foot, huh?

          • Griffonn

            I speak about policies. You speak about me. I’m sorry you’re so threatened by me. I guess it’s because you kill babies and you rightly fear judgment.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You guess incorrectly.

          • fiona64

            Really? How is *this* about policies?

            You all find out – too late – that careers are only satisfying in that they impress people

            That has NOTHING to do with policies, and everything to do with you being bitter about the life *you chose.*

            Suck it up, buttercup.

          • fiona64

            I find it interesting that you want to make this personal about me.

            … said the angry old hag whose opening gambit was to make it personal about all career women and all pro-choice women.

          • fiona64

            Really? Then why are you so jealous of career women?

          • Griffonn

            Now you’re attributing jealousy to me, as well?

            And you’re really quite sure I’m the one with issues?

          • fiona64

            You’re the one talking (out your ass) about how career women are dried up and bitter. I think you’re projecting.

          • fiona64

            I wouldn’t trade my life for one of those dry “successful” career women.

            Whom are you trying to convince? Us, or yourself?

            No love, a career woman with an adult son

          • Griffonn

            What makes you think I was talking about you, then?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You seem to be trying awfully hard to prove something to somebody.

          • Griffonn

            I think you’re doing a lot of projecting. Go back and read all the accusations you’ve flung at me, and look in a mirror.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not me that’s doing the projecting here.

          • fiona64

            You made some very ugly and blanket statements.

            And I know why; you’re jealous.

          • Griffonn

            I see.

          • fiona64

            the fact that if you’re the sort of person who kills your own son or
            daughter, you aren’t going to be happy, you’re going to loathe yourself
            and your whole life is going to be about not confronting the truth.

            Citation needed. (And that’s aside from the fact that all sons or daughters have been born … but I’ll play your idiotic game for a minute.)

            That is not how women are built.

            Citation needed.

            Promiscuity and abortion are like a very bloody version of bulimia.

            Citation needed.

          • Griffonn

            Citation from what – your faith tradition or mine?

          • fiona64

            “Faith traditions” have no place in discussions of factual matters as it is irrelevant.

            You made assertions of fact; back them up with empirical data.

            If you don’t have some actual evidence for the obvious bullshit that you claimed, it is okay to say so.

          • Griffonn

            You mean, “faith traditions other than your humanist ones.

          • fiona64

            You have no idea what my faith tradition is, because it has no place in this conversation.

            Again, you made assertions of fact. BACK THEM UP or admit that you lied.

          • Griffonn

            You present as a humanist. I’m sorry if you actually “identify” as something other than the beliefs you live by.

          • fiona64

            Again, discussions of faith traditions are irrelevant to discussions of *facts.*

            So, are you admitting that you have no citations to back up your assertions?

            Because that’s pretty much what I thought.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I fail to see why it would be a triage, since there is only one patient.

          • Griffonn

            Wow, you really do see yourself as the center of the world.

            And there is no cure for narcissism.

          • Jennifer Starr
          • expect_resistance

            Abortion is one of the most common medical procedures performed in the United States each year. So yes, it is a medical procedure.

          • night porter

            Pregnancy is a medical condition. This is a fact.

          • Griffonn

            Medicine is about restoring and maintaining bodily functioning or bodily integrity.

            Abortion is not in any way medicine. Medicine starts with “first, do no harm”.

          • night porter

            Pregnancy harms women and is not the default state of women. The metabolic demands of pregnancy will wear a woman out and too many pregnancies over a lifetime will invariably kill her.

            And don’t try to handwave away birth and labour – hours to days of painful labour followed by a large object being violently shoved through a tiny hole isn’t healthy.

            Do no harm, you say. I ask, why do you seek to criminalize abortion? Do you want to torture and kill women and girls?

          • Griffonn

            Pregnancy is absolutely a normal part of female life.

            (Hint: if it weren’t, all women would opt for permanent sterilization.)

          • night porter

            Pregnancy is something women can do, it’s not what they were made for. And NOT being pregnant is still safer than being pregnant.

            Your misogyny has been noted.

          • Griffonn

            How do you know what women are made for?

            With sexual freedom comes responsibility. If you don’t want to have a baby, don’t make one.

          • night porter

            You are the one who implied that women *should* be forced to gestate, buddy. You wrote: “”Pregnancy is absolutely a normal part of female life.””

            NORMAL doesn’t make it SAFE and it most certainly does NOT mean that women should be FORCED to gestate and birth against their will.

            And sex doesn’t ‘make a baby’ – 9 months of gestation does, and women are under NO obligation to gestate. You don’t ‘make a baby’ the moment you ejaculate, sweetie.

          • Unicorn Farm

            What does normalcy have to do with anything? Sex is a normal part of a woman’s life, but we don’t force them to have sex, do we?
            And why might that be the case?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pregnancy is still a medical condition.

          • Griffonn

            Abortion is to pregnancy what female genital mutilation is to puberty.

          • night porter

            Actually sweetie, you are on the side of the misogynists who mutilate little girls witih FGM. You seek to mutilate and kill women with forced gestation and birth.

            Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
            altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
            nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
            heartburn and indigestion
            constipation
            weight gain
            dizziness and light-headedness
            bloating, swelling, fluid retention
            hemmorhoids
            abdominal cramps
            yeast infections
            congested, bloody nose
            acne and mild skin disorders
            skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
            mild to severe backache and strain
            increased headaches
            difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
            increased urination and incontinence
            bleeding gums
            pica
            breast pain and discharge
            swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
            difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
            inability to take regular medications
            shortness of breath
            higher blood pressure
            hair loss or increased facial/body hair
            tendency to anemia
            curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
            infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
            extreme pain on delivery
            hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
            continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section — major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

            Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse in younger women)
            loose skin
            permanent weight gain or redistribution
            abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
            pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
            changes to breasts
            increased foot size
            varicose veins
            scarring from episiotomy or c-section
            other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
            increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
            loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s
            newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy
            spousal/partner abuse
            hyperemesis gravidarum
            temporary and permanent injury to back
            severe scarring requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)
            dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
            pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)
            eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
            gestational diabetes
            placenta previa
            anemia (which can be life-threatening)
            thrombocytopenic purpura
            severe cramping
            embolism (blood clots)
            medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
            diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
            mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
            serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
            hormonal imbalance
            ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
            broken bones (ribcage, “tail bone”)
            hemorrhage and
            numerous other complications of delivery
            refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
            aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
            severe post-partum depression and psychosis
            research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors
            research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
            research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy
            cardiopulmonary arrest
            magnesium toxicity
            severe hypoxemia/acidosis
            massive embolism
            increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
            molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
            malignant arrhythmia
            circulatory collapse
            placental abruption
            obstetric fistula

            More permanent side effects:

            future infertility
            permanent disability
            death.

          • Griffonn

            Did you know that most pro-life social conservatives are women?

            The fact that pregnancy can go wrong is hardly proof that it isn’t worth doing.

          • night porter

            The majority are men.

            And uhm, yes, the fact that it can harm women, and even kill them, is reason enough to abort. I bet that you wouldn’t be too pleased if someone forced you to donate bone marrow to save a life, now would you?

          • Griffonn

            Nope. The majority of pro-life social conservatives are women.

            And the majority of women oppose abortion-on-demand.

          • fiona64
          • fiona64

            Abortion isn’t a medical decision.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • Griffonn

            Effective argument, assuming you haven’t got logic.

            Do you assume female genital mutilation is a medical decision as well?

          • fiona64

            Wow. Straw man much?

          • Griffonn

            You don’t even know what a straw man is, I take it.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, actually, I do. It’s what you did when you said “And I suppose you think female genital mutilation is a medical decision.”

            Look, I get it. You’re pissed off that you stayed home and had kids while other women went out and had lives *and* children. And now you’re a bitter old bitch you wants everyone to be as miserable as you.

            Well, this pro-choice mother tells you to suck it up, buttercup, and seek counseling for the anger you feel at being unable to force others to do as you demand.

          • night porter

            PJ claims to be completing a degree in embryology

            Excuse me while I LOLOLOLOL

          • Jennifer Starr

            I very much doubt she’s even left high school yet.

          • night porter

            Yeah, I am enjoying how LB is pwning her over on LAN.

          • lady_black

            Oh no, she most certainly IS NOT completing “a degree in embryology.” Not only are such programs as rare as hen’s teeth, but to be considered an embryologist one has to have a PhD in biology with a concentration in developmental biology. It’s a very research intensive field, and the limits of her research abilities are googling on WebMD.

          • night porter

            What a shock.

          • Nessie

            Have you ever masturbated? If so, you’re a hypocrite:every single one of your soerm was a potential “son or daughter”.

          • Griffonn

            Really? You don’t know the difference between a person vs. a potential person?

          • Nessie

            An embryo or fetus is a potential person, hypocrite.

          • Griffonn

            I don’t know where you get that.

            I believe that certain truths are self-evident: that we are all created equal.

            I get the idea that “creation” means the point where a living being made of unique human DNA is born.

            Where do you get your idea? Aside from wishful thinking?

          • Nessie

            The personhood of an embryo/fetus is irrelevant: no person has the right to use another person’s body against their will. Far from giving embryos and fetuses “equal rights”; the anti-choice movement aims to give them a privilege no born person has, while denying living women a right attributed to corpses.

          • Griffonn

            Your same argument also implies that a woman whose behavior put the baby in a position where it has to be killed is guilty of causing the baby’s death.

          • night porter

            So you are saying that conception is a crime against the embryo?

          • Griffonn

            You really have a tough time with the idea that with rights come responsibilities, don’t you?

          • night porter

            And there is no ‘responsibility’ to permit another to use your body against your will, cupcake.

          • Griffonn

            With freedom comes responsibility.

            With sexual freedom comes the responsibility to do no harm. If you don’t want a baby, the burden is on you to not make one.

            If you voluntarily have sex that makes a baby, it’s your own action, you are not the victim but the one whose decisions created the situation. So you cannot claim that you have not consented to the situation.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “With sexual freedom comes the responsibility to do no harm”
            OK, cool, so I won’t harm everyone in my world by having a baby I don’t want.

            “If you voluntarily have sex that makes a baby, it’s your own action, you are not the victim but the one whose decisions created the situation. So you cannot claim that you have not consented to the situation.”
            What “action” of mine “made” the baby? Sex? Ejaculation? Fertilization of the egg? Implantation? Did I make the sperm fertilize the egg? Did I make the egg implant? Yes or no.
            Do you also claim that victims of food poisoning cannot receive treatment because they chose to eat meat that they knew could have been contaminated, and thus, they consented to the situation?
            Why or why not?

          • Griffonn

            And if you get to decide that the baby “isn’t a person”, then there’s nothing stopping other people from deciding YOU are “not a person”.

            Because “all created equal” is an either-or: it either is, or it isn’t. The act of making exceptions breaks the whole thing.

            So when you want to talk about your “rights”, I will remind you that there are no such thing as rights. There is only “might makes right” – and YOU are the one who decided that was a good thing.

          • Unicorn Farm

            The woman is not responsible for the fact that the fetus cannot survive without her.
            You can blame nature, or if you prefer, your “god” for that one.

          • Griffonn

            The woman IS responsible, though.

            It is 100% her choice, her action, that put the child in this position.

            Her irresponsible use of her body caused harm to another person. That is at the very least manslaughter.

            Unless it was rape, in which case it was 100% the rapists’ fault.

          • Unicorn Farm

            It is 100% her choice, her action, that put the child in this position.”

            She chose ONE action. To have sex. She did NOT choose for a) the egg to get fertilized or b) for the fertilized egg to implant. Or are you contending that she is culpable for the fact that the egg implanted in her uterus? Yes or no.

            Further, she is not responsible for the fact that a fetus, by definition, can’t survive without her, and you have provided no reason to believe that she can.

            “Her irresponsible use of her body caused harm to another person. That is at the very least manslaughter.”

            This is utterly false and deeply fallacious thinking. You obviously don’t know a goddamned thing about the law. Time to re-post my exposition on tort law. You’re not worth rewriting the entire explanation, so I’m just copy-pasting analysis I’ve previously posted on this board and others. It explains why the theory that a woman “harmed” the fetus is flawed in all ways. Have a nice time:

            “The first and most important is that the author neglects most of the elements that make up a tort claim, focusing solely on foreseeability.

            Presumably, although he doesn’t state it clearly, the author’s premise is that because sex is foreseeable, the woman should be required to gestate. (I disagree- birth control throws into question the idea that conception is foreseeable every time). He is trying to use a negligence theory to make his argument (foreseeability is not an element of an intentional tort, so it can only be either negligence or strict liability (more on that later)).

            In real tort law, not pro-life tort law, there are four elements to a negligence claim:
            1.) Duty;
            2.) Breach of duty;
            3.) Causation; and
            4) Damages.

            Each of these elements must be met before a tortfeasor can be considered negligent, and thus, be required to fix the damages by providing a remedy (more on the remedy component later).

            The causation element has two parts: proximate cause (where foreseeability comes in), and cause in fact.

            Cause-in-fact means what it sounds like, and is the easier concept. Did the action actually cause the damage? For example, let’s pretend a subway car explodes and hurts bystanders. The cause-in-fact question asks: did the explosion actually cause his injuries? If yes, then you have met one part of the causation analysis. The second part is proximate cause. This is where the question of foreseeability comes in. Pretend that the train car exploded because of a faulty wiring issue, caused when the train car was manufactured. Was that foreseeable? Likely yes. Pretend on the other hand that the wiring was chewed by rats, and that’s why it broke. Pretend that the rats were released by someone on the train platform a month prior, by accident. Was it foreseeable that having the rats on the platform could escape, causing the rats to chew the wires, causing the car to explode? Maybe not. The point here is that cause in fact and proximate cause, which requires foreseeability, are not the same, and that BOTH are required to meet the causation element. For the purpose of this sad little article, the most important point is that causation is only one element of a negligence claim.

            Even if you can prove causation (cause in fact and proximate), the pro-life tort argument STILL needs to prove that the woman owed a duty to the foetus, that she breached a duty by conceiving it, and that by gestating she “makes it whole.”

            The author’s theory does not even address the remaining elements of the tort claim. So, in that sense, the article fails completely.

            For fun, let’s take each element of negligence in turn, showing why tort law does not apply to pregnancy.

            1) Duty. Before a person can be held liable for negligence, he must have owed a duty to the victim. The duty is usually described as the requirement to exercise a certain level of care, to take certain precautions, so as not to harm the putative victim. What is the duty owed by the woman in the pro-lifer’s argument? He doesn’t say. To whom is it owed? He doesn’t say. To the non-existent fetus? That’s absurd. Further, because we know that pro-lifers believe that, even if you use birth control, you should be required to gestate, we know this means that they believe every single pregnancy is an act of negligence, regardless of the precautions taken. This means that the negligence theory falls apart because there is no way the woman can engage in the action (sex) without risking liability.

            2) Breach

            Before a person can be held liable for negligence, he must have breached his duty to the victim. A breach happens when you owe a duty, but your actions placed the injured person in a position of harm that he wasn’t before. “Tort” means “wrong” in French, which is why the cause of action is called a “tort”). What is the breach in the pro-lifer’s argument? He doesn’t say. Is the breach conceiving the fetus? That’s absurd. The argument fails.

            4) Damages

            The last element of negligence is that there must be damage. The pro-lifer’s argument doesn’t address this either. What is the damage to the fetus? It was not placed in a *worse* position by the woman’s having sex. It was not placed in a *worse* position by the woman’s conceiving. It went from non-existence, to existence. Where is the harm? If the pro-lifer is arguing that the fetus is harmed by being in a position of dependence, this too fails. It is impossible for the foetus to exist in an “unharmed” state. I also argue that the woman is not responsible for the fact that the foetus is entirely dependent- that’s biology.

            As commentator Jim pointed out on the secular pro-life thread, the point of remedies for torts is to “make the victim whole.” This means that the tortfeasor (once ALL the elements are proven) must provide a remedy that returns the victim as well as possible to his unharmed state. Jim astutely wrote: “As anyone who went to law school should know, remedies in the torts context are specifically designed to return the victim to the status quo ante. In the case of an unborn child, the claim is that her parents negligently caused her to exist. What’s the status quo ante, exactly? Non-existence? There’s no coherent theory of damages that would justify allowing the child to inhabit the mother’s body against the mother’s will.” This is exactly correct. The pro-lifer argues that this remedy is gestation. However, 1) the elements of negligence have not been proven, so no remedy is required and 2) gestation doesn’t return the fetus to its prior state of non-existence. Thus, the tort algorithm fails, yet again.

            Further, tort law literally never EVER requires bodily donation as a remedy. Most of the time, only monetary damages. Even if it means someone will die.

            Lastly, a brief note about strict liability. Strict liability means that you are liable if you harmed someone while engaging in a certain action, even if you took all possible precautions. If every single pregnancy is an act of negligence, regardless of the precautions taken, then the negligence theory falls apart because there is no way the woman can engage in the action without risking liability. Strict liability only applies to certain types of very dangerous activities in real life; the most common example is blasting via explosives. The way I see it, because pro-lifers believe that pregnancy is ALWAYS foreseeable even with precautions, they are essentially trying to hold women strictly liable for having sex (or in the case of rape, simply being fertile). This, of course, is an unreasonable standard to hold women to, because the vast majority of women have sex in their lifetimes, which is completely natural and acceptable. This strict liability approach to pregnancy gives women no meaningful way to opt out. You either remain abstinent throughout your life or avoid getting raped (lol), or your must gestate. It’s a no-win. In comparison with strict liability, no one is required to blast concrete. The tort algorithm fails again.”

          • Griffonn

            So you believe you can choose an action and not the consequences of that action.

            I can choose to kill someone but not choose to go to jail for it?

            Or maybe I could choose to pig out on glutton food but not choose to get fat?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Uh, yeah, I do believe that you can choose and action and not the consequences. There are many choices you can make where society does not force you to “take the consequences.” Observe:

            You choose to drive a car; you get into an accident. You are not forced to live with a broken leg for the rest of your life.

            You choose to eat oysters- you do not choose to get ill from parasites and may seek treatments.

            You choose to eat fatty foods- you may exercise and lose weight.

            You can choose to play soccer- you may choose to take advil for your sore muscles

            You can choose not to wear sunscreen- you can choose to get your moles checked to avoid melanoma.

            Any more dumb propositions you wish to make?

            However, as you point out, there *are* some cases in which society forces you to accept certain consequences for certain actions, as you point out in this mind-bendingly brilliant hypothetical: “I can choose to kill someone but not choose to go to jail for it?”
            So, sometimes you do have to accept the consequences of an action, and sometimes you do not. Thus, we have clearly established that simply because one result is a “consequence” of an action does not mean that we are obligated to accept that result. Therefore, the burden is on you to show that, *because* pregnancy is a consequence of sex, women are *obligated* to gestate.
            Go on.

          • Griffonn

            You drive a car, you get into an accident, you kill someone. You hire a lawyer to make the other person’s claim “go away”. You have no consequences, but does that mean the person you killed really didn’t exist? No, it does not.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You drive a car, you get into an accident, you puncture someone’s kidney.
            Can they take yours?

          • Griffonn

            I am seeing a dozen flaws in this analogy.

            Am I missing any?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Go on, list the flaws.
            Right now you’re missing all of them.

          • Griffonn

            Flaw #1: I let myself get sucked in by a troll employing an “argumentum ad time-wasterium”.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Right. I’m the troll here, the pro-choicer on RH Reality check.
            Take your pail and leave the sandbox ’cause you can’t hack it.
            Flounce away little boy!

          • Griffonn

            Well, if it makes you feel any better, I didn’t really intend to come here. I followed someone on my follow list.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yes, it does make me feel slightly better to learn that someone who is, apparently, so stupid that he could *accidentally* come to a website and *accidentally* start posting stupid tripe thinks that he is entitled to tell other women how to use their bodies.

          • Griffonn

            I don’t care how you use your body, as long as you don’t use it in ways that end up killing other peoples’ bodies.

            Get yourself spayed or neutered. Please.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I don’t give a s*** what you want. If I got pregnant I’d have an abortion so fast your misogynistic little head would spin right off.

            Your need to talk to women like they are animals says more about you than me. You can go away now. Don’t let the door hit you on the a** on your way out.

          • Griffonn

            Healthy women do not kill their young.

            Only animals do that.

          • fiona64

            Healthy women do not kill their young.

            Citation needed.

            Only animals do that.

            Hint: H. sapiens is an animal species.

            Or are you an evolution denier, too?

          • fiona64

            Get yourself spayed or neutered.

            You first. After all, bitches should be neutered to keep them from having too many pups.

          • Griffonn

            I don’t need to get anything fixed.

            Unlike the promiscuous person who needs to have sex but can’t handle the consequences, I am not broken.

          • fiona64

            Unlike the promiscuous person who needs to have sex but can’t handle the consequence

            Thank you for admitting that your position is a) all about slut-shaming, b) that you think pregnancy is a punishment, and c) that you are anti-contraception.

            Ho-hum. Same shit, different anti-choice dimwit.

          • Griffonn

            I don’t need to shame sluts. They have enough shame without my interference.

            I only intend to shame people who kill babies.

          • fiona64

            Again, if you know of anyone who has killed a baby, contact the police.

            You’re just pissed that there are women out there having sex without the intention to procreate, aren’t you?

          • fiona64

            Well, if it makes you feel any better, I didn’t really intend to come here

            Right …

          • Griffonn

            I normally debate with people selected from my “follow” list, but I sometimes avoid lefty sites because quite frankly these arguments (look around) are not particularly good arguments.

          • fiona64

            Considering that you think embryos are capable of experiencing pain and making deliberate evasive movement, I find it hilarious that you think that actual scientific arguments are “not very good.”

          • Griffonn

            I spent a lot of time wondering how consciousness could be an “emergent property” & finding various questions they cannot answer.

            They cannot answer the questions because there is no proof that consciousness is an emergent property. None. It is pure assumption – it goes backwards: not the proof says X, but if we believe YZ, and the proof says ABC, then X must be how YZ.

            Even small organisms show preferences: if you put them on a petri dish full of food they will move toward the food. You don’t know why and neither do I. None of us know because there is no evidence, no data, no nothing. You just have assumptions. Your FAITH tells you that they do not feel pain until they get to a particular level, but you do not really know what goes on inside any organism other than yourself – and it’s not entirely certain that anyone really understands their own consciousness, either.

          • fiona64

            Your FAITH tells you that they do not feel pain until they get to a particular level,

            No, dumbfuck. *Biology* tells us that fetii cannot experience pain until they reach a particular level. Until the myelin sheath is complete, it is not possible for a fetus to experience pain. http://www.ngidd.eu/public/myelinated.html

            And, before you go further down the road to stupid-land, there is no pain experienced in late-term abortion either. Anesthesia is systemic; when a pregnant woman is anesthetized, so is the fetus.

          • Griffonn

            Biology tells us no such thing.

            You ASSUME that all things are “emergent properties”, but nothing of the sort has been proved.

            We know for a fact that a late term abortion involves pain, but you do not know whether small organisms feel pain or not. You’re lying if you claim otherwise.

          • fiona64

            Biology tells us no such thing.

            Jesus wept; are you really that stupid?

            We know for a fact that a late term abortion involves pain

            Yep, you really are that stupid …

          • Griffonn

            You do know that the scientific method rests on certain assumptions, right?

            And that those assumptions – not any actual proof – are what the theory of emergent properties rests on, right?

          • fiona64

            You might as well admit that you couldn’t understand the references I provided, sweetie; it’s blindingly obvious anyway.

          • night porter

            Consciousness is not possible without a functional thalamus and cortex. When abortions occur, neither the thalamus or the cortex are functional, kiddo.

            The silent scream = fake.

          • fiona64

            You’re the nasty old bitch who showed up here to give the *regulars* a ration of shit about how we’re all “baby murderers,” told a slew of lies about fetal development and “promiscuity,” and got nasty about women who, unlike you, had a life that did not involve nothing but having children.

            Look, I get it. I’m sorry that you’re dissatisfied with the life that *you chose.* Seek counseling to deal with that, okay?

          • Griffonn

            Are you all baby murderers?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What makes you think that?

          • Griffonn

            You’re the one who said it. I was just asking if it is true.

          • Jennifer Starr

            When did I say that?

          • fiona64

            If you know of anyone who has murdered a baby, take your evidence to your local law enforcement office and present it. Infanticide is a crime.

          • Griffonn

            I take it you think “post birth abortion” is worse than “pre birth abortion”?

          • fiona64

            Do I really have to explain the definition of murder to you again? Were you homeschooled by imbeciles or something?

            Murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought.

            Embryos are not persons. Abortion is legal.

            You need to stop with your asinine straw men and crack a fucking book.

          • Griffonn

            So basically if a slaveowner kills his slave, that’s not murder.

            And if I kill you, but hire really good lawyers and thus get away with it, it’s not murder even if I later admit – and gloat – that I did it.

            Gotcha. “Might makes right”. Because that is totally a winning message for females.

          • fiona64

            So many straw men …

            Slaves are persons. I am a person.

            An embryo is not a person. It is a *potential* person. There is a reason why personhood is a legal status that attaches with live birth: until that point there is no way to know whether the embryo/fetus is capable of surviving ex utero.

            How can you be this delightedly ignorant about so many things? I don’t get it.

          • Griffonn

            It is living. It is human.

            We are all created equal.

            Nothing special happens to us when we go through a birth canal. (If it did, would c-section kids be human?)

            A woman killing her offspring is like a man killing his wife: decent societies shun animals.

          • fiona64

            Nothing special happens to us when we go through a birth canal

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            Really? So you’re still somehow connected to another person via the umbilical cord, using placenta to draw nutrients and cycle out waste through the other person’s circulatory system and kidneys?

            It is living.

            So is a hangnail. So is a cancerous tumor.

            It is human.

            So is a hydatidform mole.

            A woman killing her offspring is like a man killing his wife: decent societies shun animals.

            Again, if you know of any woman who has killed her offspring, contact the police.

            Hint: offspring have, you know, sprung off. They’ve been born.

          • night porter

            We are all created equal.

            Indeed. And not one of us has the right to use another person’s body as life support without explicit and ongoing consent – even if our very lives depend upon it.

            Or do you think that as part of ‘equality’ that I should be able to take your kidney to save my very life?

          • night porter

            Forced gestation makes slaves out of women, and when those women die, you have sentenced them to death for having sex, bucko.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yeah you dumb bitch, I’m a baby murder. In a crib, in a stroller, where ever I can find a baby, I’ll murder it. , you flaming imbecile. I can’t wait until all you pathetic freaks die off.

          • fiona64

            List them. I dare you.

          • night porter

            You don’t owe them your organs.

          • fiona64

            Her irresponsible use of her body caused harm to another person

            Wow; who knew that h. sapiens was capable of parthenogenesis?

          • night porter

            Why do you seek to give embryos extra special rights? No person has the right to use the body of another without consent. If you want embryos to be treated equally, they should have no more right to a woman’s body than I have to yours.

          • Griffonn

            I assume you have the right to not be dismembered.

            I don’t see anything “special” about the right to not be killed.

          • night porter

            If I am using your body against your will you have every right to remove me, even if it involves my death, if that is the ONLY way you can escape my occupation of your body.

            Can you kill your rapist in self-defense? yes or no?

          • Griffonn

            If you consented to sex, then you cannot say that the child you yourself created is there “against your will”.

            That is the same argument men used to use when they compared their wives to parasites in order to justify wife-beating.

            Domestic violence really is a wrong thing – whether you’re beating your wife or murdering your child – if you don’t want a wife in your house, don’t put her there.

          • night porter

            If you consented to sex, then you cannot say that the child you yourself created is there “against your will”.

            Actually, you can, since consent to sex is no more consent to pregnancy than consent to skiing is consent to a broken leg, consent to driving is consent to a traffic accident, or consent to eating a burrito is consent to food poisoning.

            Consent is ALWAYS revokable, and must be EXPLICIT and ONGOING. Which is why, for example, if you are having sex with someone, and you ask them to stop, and they continue, despite your wishes, it becomes RAPE – because consent is not a one time thing.

            Domestic violence really is a wrong thing – whether you’re beating your
            wife or murdering your child – if you don’t want a wife in your house,
            don’t put her there.

            Funny that you bring up domestic violence, because male abusers often use reproductive coercion to impregnate women so that they can keep them from leaving. It seems that these men, like you, believe that once they ejaculate inside a woman that her body belongs to them.

          • Griffonn

            You don’t really have the right to act however you want without having any consequences.

            In the big kid world, there are no parents to make evil consequences go away.

            I know you really want government to be like your parent, but it isn’t possible. The people who promise you that it is are the sort of people who will kill babies for political power, and they’d be just as comfortable with killing you, if you were the one who were inconvenient.

          • night porter

            You don’t really have the right to act however you want without having any consequences.

            Actually, you do, which is why if you break your leg skiing, eat a bad burrito, or get into a traffic accident, no one denies you medical care because you chose to take a risk.

            You seek to punish women with a forced pregnancy that has the potential to kill, maim and injure them all because you have a huge problem with female sexuality, and you want to make the sloots pay for their naughty behaviour, amirite?

            I know you really want government to be like your parent, but it isn’t possible.

            Actually, forced gestation is governmental intrusion into the bedroom – a place where the government does not belong. People have the right to reproductive freedom without governmental interference – you are the one who wants a nanny state, to be constantly pantysniffing, making sure that women are not up to no good.

          • Griffonn

            Killing a baby isn’t medical care.

          • night porter

            Yes it is, since the ‘baby’ has no right to exploit and harm a woman for it’s own benefit.

            Does a 5 year old have the right to exploit and harm you so that it can live? Forcibly take your bone marrow? yes or no?

          • Griffonn

            I think it’s interesting that you bring up five year olds, since Peter Singer has pointed out that the same arguments re: abortion also apply to what is now being called “after birth abortion”.

            Since five year olds rely on their parents, they have no right to exploit and harm you so that it can live, so now people are seriously arguing that “abortion” should be expanded to include babies and toddlers.

          • night porter

            Does a 5 yo have the right to take your bone marrow without consent in order to sustain his/her life yes or no?

          • Griffonn

            I don’t see how the two situations are similar, except superficially.

          • night porter

            Answer the question, please. I thought you cared about saving lives, even if it harmed the donor?

          • fiona64

            You don’t really have the right to act however you want without having any consequences.

            One potential consequence of unwanted pregnancy is an abortion.

            If you love kids so much, why do you view them as punishments?
            Other than your own bitterness, of course …

          • Unicorn Farm

            Please specify fully and in detail how I “created” the child, and answer the following question:
            Is it possible to have sex without “creating a child”?

          • Griffonn

            I think you need to go back to fifth grade sex ed class. You seem to have missed a certain cause-effect sequence.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Nope. Answer my question.

          • Griffonn

            What do you need explained? How your choice to have sex causes the baby to exist?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I want you to explain exactly what the woman did to “create the child”.
            Go on, do it.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I don’t see anything “special” about the right to not be killed.”
            That’s because you’re purposefully ignoring the fact that, in the case of an embryo, the right not to be killed necessarily includes the special right to use someone else’s body.

          • fiona64

            I believe that certain truths are self-evident: that we are all created equal.

            Is there a reason why you’re bowdlerizing the Declaration of Independence?

            BTW, abortion was known and practiced during the Revolutionary era. Just in case you skipped history classes along with biology.

          • Nordog6561

            I guess so.

            One wonders, how cold and black must one’s heart be to not self stigmatize?

          • Griffonn

            One does not need a cold and black heart – at least not until the cognitive dissonance wears off.

          • lady_black

            You are a false accuser. Go back to wherever you came from.

          • Griffonn

            Did you know that if you stick a needle into the womb, the baby will try to escape it?

          • lady_black

            False. An embryo or fetus lacks awareness, and is incapable of purposeful movements. In fact, even a newborn lacks the ability to make purposeful movements. Reflexes are not purposeful movements.

          • fiona64

            This one’s another misogynistic homophobe; look at its Disqus record. Feh.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Completely false. Likewise, if I hold a needle an inch away from a new born baby, that baby won’t “try to escape it.”
            Wanna know why? Because a new born, just like a 7 week old embryo, doesn’t have the awareness needed to feel fear of a needle.

          • night porter

            Nope, because embryos and fetuses are 1) non-sentient 2) sedated and anaesthetized whilst in utero

          • Griffonn

            This is why the film “The Silent Scream” is so powerful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON-8PP6zgQ

          • night porter

            The Silent Scream is a hoax, honey.

            Claim:
            The 12-week fetus experiences pain.
            Facts:
            At this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are still in a very early stage of development. The beginnings of the brain stem, which includes a rudimentary thalamus and spinal cord, is being formed. Most brain cells are not developed. Without a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), pain impulses cannot be received or perceived. Additionally, experts find that newborns at 26-27 weeks’ gestation (24-25 weeks’ fetal age) who survive have significantly less response to pain than do full term newborns.
            The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
            Statement on Pain of the Fetus
            We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.
            We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.
            To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

            Claim:
            The 12-week fetus makes purposeful movements (e.g., agitated movement in an attempt to avoid suction cannula).
            Facts:
            At this stage of pregnancy, all fetal movement is reflexive in nature rather than purposeful, since the latter requires cognition, which is the ability to perceive and know. For cognition to occur, the cortex (gray matter covering the brain) must be present, as well as myelinization (covering sheath) of the spinal cord and attached nerves, which is not the case.
            An example of the reflex withdrawal without pain occurs in an anencephalic (absent brain) newborn. Another known example of the reflex movement at this stage of human pregnancy is thumb sucking in utero.
            What is termed “frantic activity” by the fetus is a reflex response of the fetus resulting from movement of the uterus and its contents induced by operator manipulation of the suction curette or the ultrasound transducer on the abdomen. This same type of response would likely occur with any external stimulus. A one-cell organism such as an amoeba will reflexively move or display a withdrawal reaction when touched.
            In addition, experts in ultrasonography and film technology have concluded that the videotape of the abortion was deliberately slowed down and subsequently speeded up to create an impression of hyperactivity.

            Claim:
            Ultrasonogram depicts the open mouth of the fetus.
            Facts:
            The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. The statement that the screen identifies the open mouth of the fetus is a subjective and misleading interpretation by Dr. Nathanson. His conclusion is not supportable.

            Claim:
            The fetus emits “The Silent Scream.”
            Facts:
            A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Although primitive respiratory movements do occur in the later stages of gestation, crying or screaming cannot occur even then. In fact, a child born prematurely at 26-27 weeks’ gestation (24-25 weeks’ fetal age) cannot scream but occasionally emits weak cries.

            Claim:
            A fetus is indistinguishable from any of the rest of us.
            Facts:
            A fetus of 12 weeks cannot in any way be compared to a fully formed functioning person. At this stage only rudiments of the organ systems are present. The fetus is unable to sustain life outside the woman’s womb, it is incapable of conscious thought; it is incapable of essential breathing. It is instead an in utero fetus with the potential of becoming a child.

            Claim:
            Fetal head at 12 weeks requires the use of “crushing instruments” for extraction.
            Facts:
            At 12 weeks’ gestation (10 weeks’ fetal age) and even 1-2 weeks beyond, instrumentation other than a suction cannula is not required when abortion is properly performed. Cannulas for aspiration abortion come in varying sizes, and the larger sizes are adequate for withdrawing the contents of the uterus.

            So to sum it up, Prior to atleast 24 weeks, it is medicaly impossible for a fetus to “feel” anything. That is not an opinion, it is medical fact. The parts of the nervous system and brain that we must have in order to feel something are not there. They have not developed yet.

          • Griffonn

            It is not medical fact.

            It is ideological assumption.

          • night porter

            Nope. It is actual fact. Fetuses prior to 25 weeks are

            1) not sentient

            2) not aware of a bloody thing

            3) can’t make purposeful movements

          • Griffonn

            It is not a “fact”, it is an ideological assumption.

          • night porter

            Prove it.

          • Griffonn

            Prove it isn’t.

          • night porter

            I have provided you with proof. You have nothing but baseless assertions.

          • Griffonn

            I don’t see proof. I see unsupported ideological assertions.

          • night porter

            A peer reviewed scientific paper is proof, honey.

            I am sorry that you’re too stupid to understand that.

          • Griffonn

            Proof of something, but not of your claim.

          • night porter

            It’s proof that prenates are incapable of sentience prior to 25 weeks, and thus the silent scream is nothing but bullshit

          • fiona64

            Nope, sorry. You made the positive assertion; it is incumbent upon you to support your case.

            We’ve already proved you wrong repeatedly; it’s not *our* fault that you’re too stupid to understand the references.

            I guess that’s what happens when you decide to stay home and have a slew of kids instead of going out and getting an education like those icky “career girls” who make you so mad …

          • night porter

            A neuroscientist writes:

            A brain-dead person with a functioning heart/lungs/brain stem will still show electrical activity in the brain, but they won’t show the particular “brainwaves” that are characteristic of the higher cortical functions of cognition. So the whole EEG isn’t “flat”, just the part of the EEG profile that shows a thinking person is using that brain tissue.

            (A better description would be the more scientific exactitude of “clinical significant electrical brain activity” to avoid confusion.)

            Capacity:

            At this point no “person” with sentience or awareness is present in the body, and it is legal to discontinue life support, and harvest organs for transplant, as without a functioning brain the body is just a collection of tissue.

            People who are diagnosed as clinically brain dead are routinely disconnected from life support and used to provide the organs for transplantations (no murder charges have ever been filled for this and none ever will be) A fetus does not have the bilaterally synchronous electroencephalographic patterns in the cortical area of the brain
            to be considered alive until 26-30 weeks of gestation, exactly like those who are diagnosed as clinically brain dead by physicians.

            People who are considered clinically brain-dead, have brainwaves (and sometimes even a beating heart), just not in the part of the brain that means that they are still alive. At this point doctors can start organ harvesting or turn off life support, no murder charges have ever, or will ever be been filed.

            A fetus younger then 26-30 weeks does not have all the brain structure (cortex) or the synapse, neurons etc in place to show more brain activity then a person who is clinically brain dead, as measured with the same machine (EEG)
            The heart might beat, but nobody is home.

            No embryo or fetus has ever been found to have “brain waves,” before 26-30 weeks gestation, although extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies.

            In fact a fetus does not have a functional cortex before 20-24 weeks gestation, no neurons, dendrites, and axons, with synapses between them are physically present.
            (Pretty hard to show activity in a structure that is not even present yet)

            Since these requirements are not present in the human cortex before 20-24 weeks of gestation, it is not possible to record the clinical significant electrical brain activity indicative of any form sentience and awareness prior to 20-24 weeks. (at that point the cerebral cortex can display some small intermittent non synchronous activity (“stutter”)
            This is not surprising since it is pretty hard to show activity in a brain structure that is not even present yet.

            Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns, bilaterally synchronous electroencephalograpic are ONLY seen at a minimum of 26 to 29 weeks gestation.

            Studies used are;
            -Hamlin,H. (1964), “Life or Death by EEG,”Journal of the American Medical Association, October 12,113
            -J. Goldenring, “Development of the Fetal Brain,” New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
            -K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM
            -2010 http://www.rcog.org.uk/fetal-awareness-review-research-and-recommendations-practice
            -2005 http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429

          • Griffonn

            All of which is true, IF your starting assumptions are true.

            But your starting assumptions are not true. These medical professionals are working with that which is beyond science’s ability to prove or disprove. They are into the realm of speculation. Their assumptions – not their facts – inform them of what it means to start living or end living.

          • night porter

            Sorry, but an argument for the existence of a ‘soul’ won’t cut it around here, little boy.

          • Griffonn

            So basically you have ideological faith, and there is no point in arguing because you simply believe.

          • night porter

            No, that would be you. I have science, you have baseless assertions and beliefs in fairy tales.

          • Griffonn

            You have science on questions that are beyond science’s capacity to answer.

            Science turns into ideology when it starts talking about its totally unprovable ideas about how life arise or where it goes.

          • night porter

            It’s all provable, through something called ‘observation’ – and it has been observed that sentience is not possible prior to 25 weeks because the prenatal brain is not yet functional in the regions that give rise to sentience. So, again, The Silent Scream is a hoax.

          • fiona64

            So basically you have ideological faith, and there is no point in arguing because you simply believe.

            Project much?

          • fiona64

            But your starting assumptions are not true.

            Citation needed.

          • fiona64

            It is not a “fact”, it is an ideological assumption.

            Only if one is an absolute simpleton …

          • Jennifer Starr

            Needs some more car chases.

          • Griffonn

            For those not aware: “The Silent Scream” was hugely influential in turning people against abortion.

            To be pro-abortion is to be in denial (in most cases deliberate denial, I think) about what abortion really is and what it really does.

          • fiona64

            For those not aware (including, apparently, Griffon), “The Silent Scream” is fake. Anyone with 10 minutes’ education in the reproductive biology of viviparous vertebrates would know that.
            http://tppj.org/tppj/report/facts-speak-louder-silent-scream

          • fiona64

            You think the Silent Scream is real?

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            ::deep breath::

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • fiona64

            Oh look! Another undereducated imbecile. Quelle surprise.

          • Griffonn

            It amuses me how much energy you guys have put into trying to downplay the results of science.

            More than ever, parents are now aware that their children are behaving in ways that defy your scientifically ideological “experts”.

          • fiona64

            It amuses me how much energy you guys have put into trying to downplay the results of science.

            I’m sorry; you just broke my irony meter.

            An embryo is not capable of experiencing pain, as myelination is not complete until approximately the 29th week of gestation. It is also not capable of purposeful movements.

            If you hadn’t skipped biology class, you would know that a pithed frog will respond to noxious stimulus despite the fact that it cannot feel a thing. Response to noxious stimulus does NOT indicate a purposeful movement.

            Oh, and one more thing: “The Silent Scream”? Is fake. Which, if you had spent 10 minutes studying the reproduction of viviparous vertebrates, you would already know. http://tppj.org/tppj/report/facts-speak-louder-silent-scream

          • Griffonn

            IF your ideological assumptions are correct.

            Science does not have a good track record when it comes to metaphysical questions.

          • fiona64

            Science does not have a good track record when it comes to metaphysical questions.

            Just a little clue for you: nothing I cited is metaphysical at all. Biological reality is biological reality.

          • Griffonn

            When and how consciousness emerges is a metaphysical question.

            Science can speculate, but they have not proven anything to the point where their proof can stand without their ideological assumptions taken as a given.

          • fiona64

            Except we aren’t talking about consciousness, are we? You made claims regarding purposeful movement by embryos that are demonstrably *false.*

            Don’t trip over yourself while you backpedal.

          • Griffonn

            I have no idea what you think you’re talking about. I was talking about when and how life begins and ends, and how science has gotten into inappropriate territory by claiming to have “proven” more than it actually can prove.

          • fiona64

            You claimed that an embryo would move away from a “sharp needle” in the uterus.

            That is, of course, bullshit. And you were told in no uncertain terms *why* it was bullshit.

            Now you’re trying to pretend that you were on some metaphysical bent about “when and how life begins and ends”?

            Quit moving the goalposts.

            Life, dearie, is a continuum. Or are you arguing that spermatazoa and ova are not life?

            You’re a joke.

          • night porter

            Oh god, I explained the noxious stimuli thing multiple times to a nitwit on SPL – that neither a brain or sentience is necessary to react reflexively to a stimulus. The halfwit kept insisting that an 8 wk embryo MUST be fully conscious because “reactions mean something”. She then went on to say that looks income women should be able to afford pregnancy tests every month, and that medicaid pays for all abortions and BCP for the poor.

            I told her to check her privilege, and she accused me of being 12 years old.

            Jfc pro lifers are dumb.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why would their be a need for self-stigmatization?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Anthropologically, Homo sapiens has three strategies for dealing with unwanted reproduction (births): contraception, abortion and
            infanticide. All three are practiced in every culture worldwide historically and currently.

            Those who restrict contraception and abortion make
            infanticide, child abandonment/abuse and maternal mortality inevitable. We have many in vitro examples of this but the one that troubles me the most at the moment is this example:
            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new

            There is nothing moral about your position if your
            position is controlling women’s reproductive choices by law or by
            shaming/blaming. Illegal abortion and sepsis and hemorrhage in childbirth are the three leading causes of maternal death worldwide. Women have blood in the game. YOU do not. Abortion and contraception are human rights.

            Obviously I have thought a great deal more about this than you have. YOU do not occupy the moral high ground.

          • expect_resistance

            Or the witch burning times. You would have us burned at the stake.

          • Griffonn

            Only if you used your witchcraft to cause harm.

            Even then, you’d get a fair trial.

            Even when we’re making our biggest blunders, we’re still better than you guys.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Only if you used your witchcraft to cause harm. Even then, you’d get a fair trial.

            Exactly which century do you think you’re living in?

          • Griffonn

            The one where tens of thousands of men and women were sterilized without their knowledge or consent, because lefties thought it would benefit society to have “defective” genes taken out of the gene pool.

            Hey – did you guys ever apologize for condemning people to death based on the “science” of phrenology? (You know – feeling the bumps on peoples’ heads?) Oh wait: your atrocities don’t count, because being a Wikipedia editor gives you the right to simply erase anything embarrassing. Who wants to look at pictures of thalidomide babies?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t even begin to understand phrenology,let alone condemn someone to death for it. So I don’t see why I should apologize. Frankly I don’t even know what you’re blathering about at this point.

          • Griffonn

            I’m sure you don’t.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So tell me. When did I personally sentence someone to death for the lumps in their skull?

          • Griffonn

            Why are you changing the standards?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You were the one who claimed that I needed to apologize for it/

          • Griffonn

            I made you change the standards?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What standards?

          • Griffonn

            We were talking about group identity and now you wish to talk about personal identity.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And which group are you claiming that I’m a member of?

          • night porter
          • fiona64

            And I’m sure you have citations for all of this.

            Oh, wait. This is you. Of course you don’t.

            Sorry.

          • night porter

            Griffon gets to ‘win’ every argument because he can just choose to dismiss science as ‘ideological assertions’

            He’s like those dimwits who say that logic and science prove that there is a god, and that Laurence Krauss and Stephen Hawking are ignorant twits.

          • fiona64

            Only if you used your witchcraft to cause harm.

            Even then, you’d get a fair trial.

            I’m sure that Cotton Mather thought exactly that …

          • fiona64

            Needs more hysterics and exclamation points. Try harder next time, okay?

          • expect_resistance

            Like court ordered forced gestation. Forced birth is rape.

          • Nordog6561

            Hey, you’ve got a little…

            You need to wipe the viscera from your chin.

          • fiona64

            You clearly have no idea what viscera are …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            JEHOVAH GOD is a proabort.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do not actually have an intimate affectionate relationship with a woman, do you? Not even your Mother. Easy to tell that from what you write.
            Sweety, get laid once and get back to us. We will wait. And we know we will be waiting a long time. I would not do you with Sarah Palin’s dick.

          • expect_resistance

            Sounds like you’ve had one too many.

          • expect_resistance

            How much of your seed have you spilled?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Into a tissue? Probably plenty.

          • Nordog6561

            Still humping that “part = the whole” fallacy I see.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m not humping anything you can speak for yourself.

          • Nessie

            Says the guy claiming that a brainless, sexless embryoe is a “son or daughter”.

          • Nordog6561

            No, says the guy that as soon as a human sperm fertilizes a human egg the result is a complete, whole, genetically unique human organism. Not a part, a whole organism.

            This organism differs from an adult human being only in matters of growth.

            It is not a different kind of thing.

            It is the same kind of thing.

            The blastocyst, the fetus, the neonate, the toddler, the preteen, the adolescent, the adult, the senior citizen all differ from one another in matters of development only.

            They are all whole, genetically unique and complete human beings.

            Of course you have unfettered rights to slaughter some of them, so you should be happy.

          • Nessie

            If a zygote is a person, than an identical twin is only half of a person.
            Furthermore, the personhood of zygotes/embryoes/fetuses is irrelevant to the question of abortion: no person has the right to use another person’s body without their consent. Blood, bone marrow, and organ donation are not mandatory; even though thousands of born people die every day for need of a compatable donor.

          • Nordog6561

            Kill away ghoul. It’s your “right”.

          • Nessie

            No actual reply?

          • Nordog6561

            I wonder, exactly what reply would disabuse a ghoul of the notion that the deliberate killing innocent humans deserves all stigma it receives?

          • Nessie

            You didn’t address either of the points I raised, dolt.

          • Nordog6561

            A twin is “half a person”? Really? That’s what you got?

            That and reducing the unborn to the moral equivalent of a tumor?

            Hey, I don’t know what you’re worried about.

            You have all the right you want to rhetorically dehumanize and subsequently slaughter the unborn. And if you didn’t have that right you would do it anyway.

            What you don’t have a right to is the complicity and compliance by others. And as such, you will always be stigmatized.

          • Nessie

            You didn’t address either of my points. According to YOU-not me-a twin is only half of a person. I did not compare embryoes to tumors(though they share many similarities), I compared an embryoe to a born person in need of a transfusion or transplant. That person’s Right to Survive does not outweigh another person’s Right to Bodily Autonomy; no one will be forced to donate blood or tissue even if the patient would die without it.

          • Nordog6561

            >>You didn’t address either of my points. According to YOU-not me-a twin is only half of a person.<<

            No, that's stupid (which explains why you're saying it).

            So, every embryo is AT LEAST a human person. Some are more than one.

            You think you have a winner here. That would be funny if it weren't so wretched.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bubba and I are screwing like bunnies because the abortuary is giving a toaster away as a door prize this month. I really need a toaster.
            Two months ago Bubba and I won the microwave oven.
            Abortion – it is better than green stamps or coupon clipping.

          • Nordog6561

            You’re one sick chicken.

          • fiona64

            No, says the guy that as soon as a human sperm fertilizes a human egg
            the result is a complete, whole, genetically unique human organism.

            Congratulations. You have ascribed personhood to hydatidform moles and cancerous tumors. Way to go!

          • Nordog6561

            Congratulations. Once again an acolyte the Cult of Death reduces people to tumors.

            You should tell everyone you meet that you think the unborn are no different that tumors. That will get rid of the pro-abort stibma in no time!

          • fiona64

            pro-abort stibma

            I’m just laughing at you now.

            It’s not my fault you failed biology class.

            Now, go color while the adults talk.

          • Nordog6561

            You’re lucky.

            Everyone knows that the road to world domination is found in attacking typos.

            We all bow to your genius!

            (Really? A typo?)

          • fiona64

            One of the many choices you don’t get to make for me is what I choose to make fun of.

            For example, your microphallus.

          • Nordog6561

            And one of the many choices you don’t get to make for me is what I (and millions of other) stigmatize.

            For example, you’re being a lover of death and killer of the unborn.

          • fiona64

            Seek help for your delusions; I understand that there are some good medications out there nowadays.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I wonder if there’s a medicine for the animal fixation he seems to have…

          • fiona64

            He is clearly laboring under a great many delusions …

          • Nordog6561

            And one of the many choices you don’t get to make for me is what I (and millions of other) stigmatize.

            For example, you’re being a lover of death and killer of the unborn.

          • lady_black

            Projecting again? You strike me as someone who drunk-posts. Put the plug back in the jug, honey, and go sleep it off.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t think night porter is the ghoul here.

          • Nordog6561

            And you would be wrong.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I don’t think so.

          • Nordog6561

            I doubt you have had a cogent though in some time.

            You still think that if a healthy child results from an abortion then the abortion was a success.

            You’re not right in the head.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Strawman fallacy. Over 90% of abortions happen in the first trimester.

          • Nordog6561

            Then the first trimester abortions account for 90% of the innocent human beings slaughtered by your march for freedom.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’re not right in the head.

            Well, actually I am left-brained. That’s why I can remember phone numbers and passwords and completely forget someone’s name.

          • expect_resistance

            Nope.

          • expect_resistance

            That one of his favorite words from his limited vocabulary. He’s a narrow minded sexist jerk. He thinks uteruses are “killing chambers.” What a freak.

          • lady_black

            Cry me a river, creep.

          • Nordog6561

            Cry you a river. You mean the river of blood you swim in is still not enough.

            Of course it’s not.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Blood’s out. Shower gel is in.

          • Nordog6561

            Look at your hands again Lady MacBeth.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why do I need to look at my hands?

          • expect_resistance

            I just put blood on my garden from my diva cup. Good fertlizer.

          • night porter

            As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see “the River Tiber foaming with much blood”. That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the century. Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.

          • expect_resistance

            Get a new word, ghoul is getting old.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That might involve him learning how to read.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            … and use a dictionary. Horrors.

          • Nordog6561

            Ghoul is what you are. It’s not my fault.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m s ghoul? Really how old are you? Grow up.

          • Nordog6561

            Oh, like that’s gonna leave a mark.

          • expect_resistance

            @ troll. You are a misogynist.

            @ troll.@ troll. @ troll. @ troll. Isn’t that what you like to say to feminists who post at NRO right before you ban them. You are sick because you get off on trying to control women. You get off on controlling their speech. You get off on treating women like a broodmares and chattel. You can’t control us here. You have no control here and no power to do anything here.

          • Nordog6561

            LOL

          • Bobbybestcat

            So are you saying you are only for abortions that are a risk to mother’s physical life? Many people are on board with that.

          • night porter

            Abortion is ALWAYS SAFER THAN PREGNANCY.

          • Bobbybestcat

            not for the baby

          • night porter

            Irrelevant. There is no ‘right’ to use and occupy the body of another without explicit and ongoing consent – even if your very life depends upon it.

          • Bobbybestcat

            doesn’t the fact that the mom and dad put the baby there imply consent?

          • night porter

            Really? A woman and a man both take a baby and place it in the woman’s uterus? They force it to implant and everything?

            Do tell me more, your understanding of biology is hilarious.

          • Bobbybestcat

            please don’t tell me I have to teach you how babies are made.

          • night porter

            You said that the woman and the man directly placed a ‘baby’ in the uterus.

            Tell me, does a woman also directly place the embryo in her fallopian tube in the case of an ectopic pregnancy/

          • Unicorn Farm

            You apparently think that a man and a woman take a baby and put it into the uterus while they are having sex. You really need to seek help.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh my god! You think that a baby is a part of a sex act!??!? You sick freak.
            Please tell me you’re seeking help.

          • fiona64

            What are we, three years old? What a ridiculous explanation of human reproduction.

            Consent to sex is NOT consent to gestation.

          • expect_resistance

            There is no baby. A ZEF is not a baby. Good Goddess you’re stupid.

          • lady_black

            Actually “freedom” means the ability NOT to spend one’s entire life gestating, birthing and child-rearing. Check your male privilege. BIG TIME.

          • Nordog6561

            Check your baby killing privilege. (BIG TIME? LOL)

          • expect_resistance

            No one is killing babies. Call the cops if you see this.

          • Nordog6561

            Killing babies is legal you fool.

          • expect_resistance

            You sound like you’re having delusions.

          • lady_black

            Killing babies is a felony. If you know of anyone killing a baby, it’s your civic duty to inform law enforcement of what you know.

          • Nordog6561

            Not always. Killing babies is fair game so long as they are in the womb.

          • fiona64

            Oh. So you’re another idiot who doesn’t know the difference between an embryo and an infant. Now I understand.

          • Nordog6561

            No, Honey, I know the difference between the two.

            I also know that both are gentetically unique complete human individuals (persons) differing not in kind, but only in degree of maturation.

            That’s just scientific fact.

            And I’m sure you do understand, which makes your denial of such facts a willful and disturbing sacrifice to your insistence on killing.

          • fiona64

            I also know that both are gentetically unique complete human individuals
            (persons) differing not in kind, but only in degree of maturation.

            Nope; an embryo is not a person. Personhood has a very specific legal definition. http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Person.aspx

            Quote: An entity recognized by the law as separate and independent, with legal
            rights and existence including the ability to sue and be sued, to sign
            contracts, to receive gifts, to appear in court either by themselves or
            by lawyer and, generally, other powers incidental to the full expression
            of the entity in law.

            A zygote/embryo/fetus fails every single bit of the legal definition of personhood.

            which makes your denial of such facts a willful and disturbing sacrifice to your insistence on killing.

            You’re wanking while you write this nonsense, aren’t you?

            Go f*ck yourself; god knows, no one else will.

            No love, a pro-choice *mother*

          • Nordog6561

            Reality predates legal definitions.

            But I’ll note that you would have been happy with the Dred Scott decision.

          • fiona64

            Reality predates legal definitions.

            Does it now?

            Then please tell me why you would ascribe personhood to an embryo and deny it to women. After all, according to you, embryos are persons with rights and women are quite obviously not. So I’m keen to understand how “reality” works in your mind.

          • Nordog6561

            I don’t deny personhood to women.

            I deny personhood gives one the unfettered right to kill people.

          • fiona64

            No one is going around killing people … outside of your masturbatory fantasies, of course.

          • Nordog6561

            That’s a great example of the “Big Lie+Perverted Thought+Logical Fallacy Trifecta”!

            Well done sir.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Unfettered: I do not think that word means what you think it means.

          • Nordog6561

            At this point I doubt that anything you think will surprise me.

          • Arekushieru

            No, you’re the one who insists on killing women, however, since pregnancy is always risky and the third leading cause of death for women, worldwide.

          • Bobbybestcat
          • night porter

            So what?

            That does not prove anything.

          • Bobbybestcat

            was that reply to me? Hard to tell. If you mean the link, it shows you the uniqueness and humanity of the unborn person. They are humans, people, from the start….only the form and location changes. You are the same person you were then, and will be, just older or younger.

          • night porter

            So what.

            When my kitty was a zygote that zygote was unique as well. Does that make my kitty a person?

            It doesn’t mean anything. At all.

            Try to make a more coherent argument, I beg of you.

          • Bobbybestcat

            it makes the kitty zygote the first stages of a kitty….but kitty nonetheless.

          • night porter

            You are arguing that unique DNA = a person.

            So, is my kitty a person because her DNA is unique? How about an acorn, is that acorn also a person because the DNA is unique?

            And by your ‘logic’, a clone cannot be a person, because that DNA is most definitely NOT unique, but a 1:1 copy.

          • Bobbybestcat

            well, we were speaking about babies.

          • night porter

            You made the argument, I expect you to stand by it.

            What is the significance of ‘unique DNA?’ Why does unique DNA = a person

          • Arekushieru

            It makes the ‘kitty’ zygote a kitty the same way that a human zygote makes it HUMAN, not a human being/person.

          • fiona64

            You are the same person you were then

            Now, *you* may not have grown or learned anything since the embryonic phase of development, but others most assuredly have.

          • Unicorn Farm

            yeah, you are.

          • fiona64

            Yep, you are.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m really getting sick of you loons talking about “The Womb” as if it was merely morally neutral place, like Arkansas.

            Where’d you go for vacation? Oh, you know, the womb.

            Nope. Sorry. It’s not just “the womb.” You can’t erase the person wrapped around that womb buy pretending refusing to use possessive pronouns. It’s a specific woman’s organ, and that matters.

          • Nordog6561

            >>You can’t erase the person wrapped around that womb buy pretending refusing to use possessive pronouns.<<

            True, but you can kill someone if they're IN the womb.

          • Unicorn Farm

            *Wooooooosh* *splat*
            That’s the sound of my point flying over your simpleton head and landing on the ground.
            And yeah, I certainly can kill anything in my uterus if I don’t want it there.

          • Nordog6561

            >>And yeah, I certainly can kill anything in my uterus if I don’t want it there.<<

            Then we agree.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Cool. Since you agree with my position on abortion, why don’t you toddle along now and leave the discussion to the adults, mmk?

          • Nordog6561

            Hey, I know you just woke up, so here’s the deal.

            The subject really is “abortion without stigma”.

            I’m not going away.

            The stigma’s not going away.

            Try to keep up.

          • Unicorn Farm

            And what does this word salad have to do with anything?

          • Nordog6561

            I’m apologize, I was wrong about you, you’re still asleep.

            Come back tomorrow.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Like you haven’t been all over this board railing about abortion. Don’t trip when you backpedal.

          • Nordog6561

            Oh, I’ve been right about abortion, just wrong that you’re still asleep.

            Wake up already!!!

          • Unicorn Farm

            troll

          • expect_resistance

            Call him “@troll.” It will make him feel at home like he’s at NRO.

          • fiona64

            I’m not going away.

            Someone’s awfully sure of themselves …

          • Nordog6561

            Good point.

            After all, the LGBTSTFU mob is on the prowl these day. Who knows when I’ll be disappeared.

          • fiona64

            You know, the University of Georgia did a fascinating study back in the ’90s for which the findings have been replicated repeatedly.

            Seems that the loudest homophobes (like, you know, the idiot you see in the mirror each morning) are actually big ol’ closet cases. Hmm. http://elitedaily.com/news/world/homophobic-men-aroused-gay-male-porn-surprised/

          • Nordog6561

            Please.

            Stop.

            You’re scaring me.

            lol

            On no!

            Not the “homophobe = closet gay” gambit!

            LOL

          • fiona64

            Yep. Definitely a closet case.

          • Nordog6561

            I’m just envious of all that hair on your chest.

            How do you do it?

          • fiona64

            I really am sorry about your microphallus; maybe a doctor can help you.

          • Nordog6561

            Well, we can’t all be hung like you are.

          • Arekushieru

            Oh, please, stop projecting. It’s YOU people who want to ‘disappear’ people from the Quiltbag community. That they’re not taking it anymore means you have to WHINE about how you’re losing your privileges.

            Seriously, those against women’s rights are typically against EVERYONE’S rights, so I’m not surprised that you are a homophobic misogynist.

          • Nordog6561

            The “Quiltbag” community? You know, the conversations going on in your head are so loud I can almost hear them from here.

          • Arekushieru

            Wow, even MORE ableist remarks. Quiltbag is a more inclusive term than the simpler term LGBT, OBVIOUSLY. Seriously, learn2extrapolate.

          • Nordog6561

            Ablelist? Man you’re a freak.

            So “Quiltbag” is shorthand for LGBTQFFANYONEINTHEHOUSESOSTGU?

            That makes so much more sense that changing the letters every 3 months because some previously undiscovered freak feels left out of the Alphabet Soup Sexual Identity Circle Jerk.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, brother. Get down off the cross, please. Someone else needs the wood.

          • Arekushieru

            Where’s the stigma for men killing their rapists? Yeah, thought so. You’re just a bigoted misogynist.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Where’s the stigma for men killing their rapists? Yeah, thought so. You’re just a bigoted misogynist.<<

            Wow, spin off the rails much?

            LOL

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, you’re just uneducated if you don’t understand logic and analogies. But that’s typical for you people. Rape happens REGARDLESS of innocence, intent and cause. LETHAL (meaning ACTUAL KILLING) force can be used REGARDLESS of innocence, intent or cause. That you don’t apply this LOGIC to the fetus, exposes you for the misogynist you are. Thanks for playing!

          • Nordog6561

            You need to take your meds and find your fainting couch.

            Quickly.

          • Arekushieru

            MORE non-bigotry and flowing verbiage defending your position! NOT. You haven’t been able to do any of that since the beginning. DARN, eh?

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion isn’t killing nor does it involve babies. Although it can involve a child, considering the youngest mother, whom you would have LOVED to force to gestate, was FIVE YEARS OLD.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Abortion isn’t killing nor does it involve babies.<<

            Every abortion kills an innocent human being.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, abortion can be performed on a woman who does NOT have a fetus present or the fetus is DEAD. Therefore, abortion occurs REGARDLESS of whether or not a fetus dies. Oops.

            A fetus is neither a human being nor innocent or guilty.

          • Nordog6561

            Oh yeah, abortion is ALL about previously dead babies.

            Really, take your meds. Stay away from open windows and sharp objects.

          • Arekushieru

            Seriously, what is WITH your lack of compassion for those who are BORN WITH MENTAL ILLNESSES. Oh, right, you’re ‘compassion’ is only reserved for the unborn.

            And, PLEASE, learn2freakingREAD. It’s not all about previously dead FETUSES. But that is irrelevant to my point. Of course, as per usual, the point goes RIGHT over the antis head.

          • Nordog6561

            LOL

          • fiona64

            No, sweetie; infanticide is a crime.

          • Nordog6561

            Ultimately, ontologically, so is abortion.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No.

          • fiona64

            Only if one is an absolute moron.

          • Nordog6561

            You can scream your denying lies till you die, they don’t change the reality.

            Sweetie.

          • Nordog6561

            You can scream your denying lies till you die, they don’t change the reality.

            Sweetie.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s not the one screaming lies.

          • Nordog6561

            Well, she’s not the only one.

            There’s always you too.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I haven’t done that either.

          • Nordog6561

            Well, she’s not the only one.

            There’s always you too.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s not the one screaming lies.

          • expect_resistance

            Infanticide is a crime, abortion is legal. Get over it big whinny cry baby.

          • lady_black

            I don’t have to “kill babies.” I had the good sense to get my tubes tied when I was finished having children. I enjoyed many, many years of non-procreative sex.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oooh look, pervert brought its murderporn for show and tell. How special.

          • expect_resistance

            You argue similar talking points to what the Taliban argues.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So if a pregnancy results in death of the pregnant woman, can we try the fetus for murder of manslaughter? If a fetus can be ‘innocent,’ it surely can be thought of as guilty as well, right?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Abortion is 14 times safer than giving birth, especially in America.
            The right to self defense is absolute and completely moral.

          • Nordog6561

            Every abortion kills at least one human being.

            Never safe.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            A fetus is not a human being. You cannot abort a human being by scraping my uterus. A fetus does not meet the medical definition of human being.
            Words have meaning, except for forced birther cultist sexpigs like YOU.
            A human being is:
            hu·man be·ing
            noun
            a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

          • Nordog6561

            Of course a fetus is a human being.

            But of course you must deny that to champion the right to kill it.

            Good luck with that “no stigma” thingie.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The argument ‘Nuh uh and you are evil” seems to be your only argument.

            Not a sufficient argument when making public health law.

            Prove a fetus is a human being using unbiased sources. I will wait. I can easily refute your assertion using religion, law, science.

            And if you persist in your lies, I will prove it over and over and over and over, as will other women and men here. Sucks to be you.

          • Nordog6561

            >>The argument ‘Nuh uh and you are evil” seems to be your only argument.<<

            That's a lie.

            It's one thing to reject my arguments. It's a lie that I have not made one.

            But then, pro-aborts are living lies.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Another example of “Nuh uh and you are evil”

          • Nordog6561

            You’re projecting.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            How so? I know this is going to be fun.

          • expect_resistance

            You’re engaging in anti-choice forced birthed anti-woman bullying.

          • Nordog6561

            You’re engaging in imbecilic bleating.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope. She has given you discussion, you have not given us anything other than repeated, regurgitated TRIPE.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, that would be you. The other posters ,even if I disagree with them, at least seem to be trying to discuss.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m going to call you @troll for now on. @troll quit whining. You know you’re a liar who is full of it.

          • Nordog6561

            Did I just hear you stomp your foot?

          • expect_resistance

            Don’t you like nicknames? What’s a matter, too hot for us in the kitchen.

          • Nordog6561

            >> What’s a matter, too hot for us in the kitchen.<<

            I don't know. IS it too hot for you in the kitchen?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Plum Dumpling is right. You haven’t actually made any arguments, and you seem to have problems refuting those made to you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He has not refuted even one of my arguments.
            I have not yet seen an argument that makes sense from the pervert.

          • Arekushieru

            Since there is no such thing as a pro-abort (here, anyways), you have already been caught in one lie. OOPS? Foot in mouth disease, much?

            And Pro-‘Lifers’ always make up lies about giving birth and being pregnant. Hmm, self-projection!

          • expect_resistance

            Don’t like being called a liar. Well then don’t lie silly.

          • Nordog6561

            I don’t know what’s more funny.

            Your brilliantly scathing rhetoric, or The Ghoul Star’s up voting it.

            hehehehe

          • expect_resistance

            I think I even got more upvotes at LAN. PJ4 even upvoted me once.

          • Nordog6561

            Maybe you could do a screen capture, print it out, and scrapbook it.

            That’s what you junior high girls do isn’t it?

          • expect_resistance

            Makes you mad doesn’t it. Poor baby.

          • Nordog6561

            LOL

            No, I was never into scrapbooks, but I hear you girls love them.

          • Paul

            The law is inconsistent. See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act. If the mother wants to terminate the fetus then it’s her property to dispose of, if someone else does it, even unintentionally, during the commission of a crime then it’s murder; presumably even if the woman is on her way to, or at, the abortion clinic.

            Imagine a world where artificial uterii are freely and widely available and the technology exists to transplant an embryo/fetus from the mother into the artificial uterus with near perfect results that is safer, cheaper, more convenient than an abortion for the woman. Imagine also that a woman finds herself pregnant and doesn’t want the baby but the father does. What should happen?

            In that situation would you still argue for the mother’s right to terminate the fetus rather than let it live?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have the same kind of fantasy. Only mine is more likely to happen in the next 10 years.

            The male birth control pill is in the testing on humans stage. When it is available, we will find out exactly how much men love women, and how much they love children, and exactly how sexually perverted men are.

            It will be as big a game changer as The Pill for Women. It is going to be a hoot. And oh boy are sick folks like you going to be upset. I am so looking forward to the social train wreck. Hope it happens before I die.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, it isn’t. And if it were a human being that would be irrelevant. So, tell me, why do we consistently proclaim that a fetus isn’t a human being when it’s irrelevant to our argument? Perhaps because a fetus is NOT a human being and WE hate lies? Oops?

          • expect_resistance

            A zygote, embryo, or a fetus is not a person. Unlike a ZEF a woman is a person. Not sure how you can’t grasp simple concepts.

          • Nordog6561

            >>A zygote, embryo, or a fetus is not a person…<<

            Actually, all three are persons when they are human zygotes, embryos, or fetuses.

            But I understand haters like you gotta deny the humanity of those you seek to kill.

          • expect_resistance

            No ZEFs are not persons women are. The rights of ZEFs do not trump those of women. Only forced birthers think women are second class citizens subservient to ZEFs. You’re the hater you hate women and want them so suffer like women in El Salvador.

          • Nordog6561

            You really should put down the crack pipe.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s all you got? If we were at NRO you’d be banned by now. You’re a hypocrite and a liar.

          • Nordog6561

            You didn’t say, “@troll”.

            You’re pathetic

          • expect_resistance

            I see your NRO buddy Th_Ph is lurking. What’s wrong Th_Ph can’t speak for yourself? Are you scarred. Afraid we will throw an “@troll” at you? You can’t bully us here. Hahahhahahahhahahahh!!!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Th_Ph is too much of a coward, just like PJ4.

          • expect_resistance

            Th_Ph is an asshat bully and PJ4 is just dumb.

          • Nordog6561

            It’s been a long time, so tell me, what’s it like being in middle school?

          • expect_resistance

            Wouldn’t know, but since your stuck there you could tell me.

          • Nordog6561

            LOL

            I know you are but what am I?

            INFINITY!

          • expect_resistance

            You’re not here for any serious purpose @troll

            You’re a misogynistic control freak who gets off on controlling women, by fantasizing they are forced to gestate every pregnancy. Do you get your talking points from NRO writer Kevin D. Williamson? He said “women who have abortions should be put to death — by hanging. And not just the women; he says the doctor who performs the abortion, the nurses who assist, and the hospital staff who enable it should also be executed.”

          • Nordog6561

            You’re a sick, twisted ghoul.

            And with your troll flags you are now officially a self-demonstrated hypocrite.

          • expect_resistance

            Im mocking you stupid.

          • Nordog6561

            I’ll endure somehow.

          • expect_resistance

            You’re a bully, you’ll just look for your next target to attack.

          • Nordog6561

            zzzzzzzzzzzzzz…

          • expect_resistance

            Does the poor baby need a nap. Boo hoo go cry to your mama at NRO.

          • Nordog6561

            Hey, that’s a good one.

            Maybe tomorrow you can move up to picking out typos!

          • expect_resistance

            That would be a waste my time. I focus on calling out anti-choice/forced-birther bullies like you and Calvin. You will never win.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You support child abuse, child abandonment, infanticide and maternal and infant death, if you wish to criminalize abortion. If you do not want to criminalize abortion, I have no quarrel with you.

          • Nordog6561

            LOL

            So, I support child abuse because those children abused in life were not saved by you by being killed in the womb.

            You are sick in the head.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            My Mother had an illegal abortion. Stop using my Mother to make your NONargument.

            And stop using my mental health to make a public health care NONargument. Many women with brain disorders/mental illness are Mothers. So tacky.

            Anthropologically speaking, Homo sapiens has three strategies
            for dealing with unwanted reproduction (births): contraception, abortion and infanticide. All three are practiced in every culture worldwide historically and currently.

            Those who restrict contraception and abortion make infanticide, child abandonment/abuse and maternal mortality inevitable. We have many in vitro examples of this but the one that troubles me the most at the
            moment is this example:
            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new

            There is nothing moral about your position if your position is controlling women’s reproductive choices by law or by shaming/blaming. Illegal abortion and sepsis and hemorrhage in childbirth are the three leading causes of maternal death worldwide. Women have blood in the fertility game. YOU do not. Abortion and contraception are human rights.

            Obviously I have thought a great deal more about this than you have. YOU do not occupy the moral high ground.

            I think, since you can make no reasonable argument, you are here to fap all over us. Bet you keep the KY handy right near the computer. Fricking forced birther pervert. Get lost. Or make a fooking decent argument. I can practically hear the fap fap fap from here.

          • Arekushieru

            So, you think that telling a child that was abused that they should be grateful they’re not dead is compassionate. Okay, CHECK. Up is down and down is up for antis.

          • Nordog6561

            Oh, I see the cretins are awake now.

            What a disgrace you are.

            Only ghouls like you try to spin killing someone as the compassionate choice.

          • Arekushieru

            Still can’t respond directly to someone’s comment, I see, but STILL projecting that on everyone else at the same time! What are we, still in GRADE school?

            Yes, it is more compassionate to kill someone before rather than AFTER they have experienced pain and suffering OR pleasure. PLUS, you are one of those who would force someone to endure unending pain rather than fulfilling their request to die, even though YOU are the one that forced them into such a life AND even though you will not be the one suffering, ALL so that you can say you ‘defend LIFE’. What a greedy, sick twisted ghoul YOU are.

          • fiona64

            Oh, I see the cretins are awake now.

            What a disgrace you are.

            What an apt description of every anti-choice troll to ever show up here.

          • Nordog6561

            Great rhetorical ju jitsu there.

            You’ll go far.

          • HeilMary1

            Wish my disfiguring anti-choice mom aborted me instead.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Wish my disfiguring anti-choice mom aborted me instead.<<

            You're a real sicko.

          • Arekushieru

            No, that’s what YOU want. So if you were actually telling the TRUTH, you would call YOURSELF a sick, twisted, ghoul.

          • expect_resistance

            He’s an idiot. He told me at LAN that my uterus is a “killing chamber.”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Have you ever actually had sex? I do not think so.

          • Nordog6561

            Do you ever think about anything except in terms of sex? I didn’t think so.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am female.
            My whole life is about Sex – and Theatre, and Children, and Writing, and Feminism, and Orgasms, and Stripping/gogo dancing, and the Fellowship of Quakers in the Arts, and Orgasms, and Sex, and Flea Mkts, and Antiques/Collectibles, and Art, and Sex, and Cooking, and my Blogs, and Comedy, and Orgasms, and Design, and Crochet, and Orgasms, and Design, and Sex, and Politics, and …
            Thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk about myself. I enjoyed it immensely.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk about myself. I enjoyed it immensely.<<

            Childhood and narcissism are like that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are an expert on that, I know. We can all tell.

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion doesn’t kill, and the only human being involved is the woman.

            Pregnancy is never safe, either, so your point is…?

          • expect_resistance

            Would you feel happier if a woman was forced to gestate and died?

          • Nordog6561

            Would you feel happier if your father quit sodomizing you?

            Both our questions are equally reasonable.

            You do the math.

          • expect_resistance

            My question is not and your answer is a deflection.

          • Arekushieru

            A fetus is neither innocent nor guilty. It is not ‘human life’. It IS, however, human tissue. Whether or not it is innocent, guilty OR human life is irrelevant when determining rights, however. Sad that you would think that women deserve just as much rights as black women during times of slavery then attempt to claim that women can still reach freedom by being forced to gestate is evidence of YOUR abject state of intellectual and moral corruption.

          • Nordog6561

            No, it’s a human life.

            It’s human tissue in exactly the same why that you are human tissue.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope. I don’t require someone else’ body to make more human tissue. Also, the same reason that sex is only assigned at birth is the same reason that one can only be determined to be human life at birth.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Nope. I don’t require someone else’ body to make more human tissue.<<

            You did before you were born. Idiot.

            Or were you gestated in a cesspit? That I could almost believe.

          • Arekushieru

            Wow, I’m still unborn. Gee, I didn’t know that! Or someone, named NorDOG6561 doesn’t know how biology works!

            Gestated in a cesspit? You seriously don’t know how biology works, do you. Btw, my mother is Pro-CHOICE. I have five cousins who were born from a Pro-Life aunt. She could give two shits about them, especially when compared to MY mother. So, maybe you’re thinking was born in a cesspit like you suggest I was actually born, which wouldn’t surprise me, given, also, that you think understanding biology means coming from a cesspit.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Wow, I’m still unborn. Gee, I didn’t know that! Or someone, named NorDOG6561 doesn’t know how biology works!<<

            Man, you really are stupid. Just for the record, mentioning what you needed in the womb is not a comment on what you need now.

          • Arekushieru

            Oh, ableist remarks. Wow. And coming from the SAME person who missed the point of my previous comment. Which is EXACTLY what you said, that I don’t need something, NOW, because that was the ACTUAL comparison? Not between a fetus and my fetus self. And I’M the ‘stupid’ one? Wow.

          • Nordog6561

            >>I’M the ‘stupid’ one? <<

            Yes, but apparently from this question you're learning.

          • expect_resistance

            You’ve set the bar for stupid.

          • expect_resistance

            He’s one sick cookie.

          • expect_resistance

            Why is it that you are so insecure you need to control others? Why is it that you want to punish women for having sex with forced gestation against their will. Do you get off on your sexist thoughts? Do you seek pleasure controlling women’s fertility.

          • Nordog6561

            Why is it you’re so insecure you need to talk about power tools?

            Hey, I don’t control anyone and I never will.

            You’re the one who’s having an existential crisis because you can’t control me.

            Abortion kills people. Every time.

          • expect_resistance

            Your still a control freak. Sorry you’re a lost cause.

          • Nordog6561

            Well, just say that over and over again when you lie down to sleep at night.

            It will give you great solace.

          • HeilMary1

            Childbirth maims all women and murders millions more. You pious playboys never stay with such injured women, or even support your own kids.

          • lady_black

            What an embryo or fetus needs in the womb isn’t OWED to them by anyone. Just as if you happened to need blood, nobody owes you that either.

          • HeilMary1

            Women don’t owe you and pedophile priests the deadly shredding of their lady parts and a thousand other deadly complications as payment for sex.

          • Nordog6561

            I don’t owe baby killing zombies like you the chance to kill people without stigma.

            Tough sh1t for you.

            Have you been demonically demented for long?

          • lady_black

            You owe her minding your own damn business, before you get hurt.

          • Nordog6561

            >>You owe her minding your own damn business, before you get hurt.<<

            Opposing ghouls like you is every decent person's business.

            Before I get hurt?

            Killing babies is not enough violence for you?

        • Bobbybestcat

          I’ve yet to hear or read of any effort to eliminate contraception.

          • night porter

            The religious right wants to make it unaffordable

          • Bobbybestcat

            citation please.

          • night porter

            How about the Hobby Lobby decision, now, thanks to the Supreme Court, all ‘closely held’ corporations are free to deny their employees EVERY form of birth control

            And, Little Sisters of the Poor and Ave Maria University have even gone so far as to say that their religious freedom is being trampled if they have to sign a piece of paper which EXEMPTS them from the birth control mandate: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/religious-nonprofits-tip-their-hands-real-goal-birth-control-fight

            Ave Maria believes that any action ‘specifically intended to prevent procreation’—including contraception and sterilization—is morally wrong,” the Sept. 12 filing said. “Simply routing the form through HHS is a distinction without a difference. Indeed, HHS concedes that the augmented rule simply provides an ‘alternative’ that has the exact ‘same’ effect as before.”

            The “effect” that it wants to avoid is to take part in any process that ends with their employees receiving insurance coverage for contraceptives like the morning-after pill or an IUD. The Becket Fund, a conservative legal group defending Ave Maria and about 40 like-minded nonprofits, tipped its hand as to the goal when speaking for its other client, Little Sisters of the Poor

            ———

            And now the GOP is talking a bunch of bs about how contraception should be sold over the counter – which will then result in it no longer being covered by insurance, and prices will be so high that your average woman won’t be able to afford it.

          • Bobbybestcat

            So your solution is to force those with religious objections to pay for contraception, even though it is legal and available and (come on…get real) quite inexpensive. Lobby Hobby actually covers birth control, just not abortion agents. The Little Sisters and a Catholic university are not advocating for making contraception illegal, they just don’t want to cover it which is their right. In fact, it should be the right of ANY employer to decide what coverage to provide. When I was younger and needed birth control my health insurance didn’t cover it either. This is a new-ish concept. I was able to pay for my own, and I was not making a lot of money.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If I understand correctly–and I could be wrong, the Little Sisters even refused to fill out a form which would have exempted them. Which was something that didn’t make much sense, in my opinion.

          • Unicorn Farm

            This is correct. The little sisters qualified for the exemption for the mandate- but the refused to sign the form that would allow them to claim the exemption. Eye roll.

            And no, it doesn’t make much sense.

          • night porter

            yes, and Ave Maria is doing the same, since they consider it a sin to sign an opt out form because then the evil government will permit slooty sloots to kill baybeez with consequence free sex~!

          • night porter

            So your solution is to force those with religious objections to pay for contraception, even though it is legal and available

            Hey sweetie, did you even read my links? THEY DON’T HAVE TO PAY FOR CONTRACEPTION, THE GOVERNMENT OFFERED THEM AN OPT OUT AND THEY WON’T EVEN OPT OUT BECAUSE SIGNING THE PAPER TO OPT OUT IS A SIN AS FAR AS THEY ARE CONCERNED BECAUSE THEN THEIR EMPLOYEES CAN RECEIVE CONTRACEPTION DIRECTLY FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND THE INSURERS.

            Try to keep up.

          • fiona64

            So your solution is to force those with religious objections to pay for
            contraception, even though it is legal and available and (come on…get
            real) quite inexpensive

            First of all, it is NOT always “quite inexpensive.” Your argument that “WalMart has pills for $4 a month” (because I can see that coming) falls flat on its face. BCPs are NOT one size fits all.

            Lobby Hobby actually covers birth control, just not abortion agents.

            Aside from the fact that the four meds the Greens claimed to *believe* cause abortions (despite the fact that they demonstrably do not), you’re a liar. The ruling was expanded *the very next day* to include *all forms of contraception.* http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-expanded-hobby-lobby-20140702-column.html#page=1

            It is NOT up to anyone’s employer to make their medical decisions for them; that is between the doctor and the patient.

          • HeilMary1

            Pills cost $600-1200 per year. I couldn’t afford them as a starving freelance graphic artist. Being facially disfigured by my anti-abortion mother made getting hired nearly impossible. And Litter Sister Sosefina Amoa smothered her secret newborn at her new Washington, DC convent, thanks to her abstinence-only and no contraception for anyone “sex ed.”

          • lady_black

            There ARE no abortion agents among contraceptives. And no I do NOT expect them to “pay for contraception.” I expect insurance to cover it as the ACA requires. And before you say “the employer is paying for it” NO they are NOT. The employee is earning the coverage with his/her labor, and paying out of pocket for the remainder of the premium. That is the bargain with employees who receive heath insurance as a benefit. Vacation pay is a benefit, too. You earn it. The employer has no right to tell you what you may or may not do on your paid vacation. Like your doctor visits, it’s none of his damn business.

          • HeilMary1

            Then there are the Catholic pharmacists at big chains who refuse to fill such prescriptions.

          • Arekushieru

            Then you should really come out of that rock under which you’re hiding. I’m a Canadian and I’ve even heard of US attempts to deny contraception and comprehensive sex ed, after all. So that’s the only reason of which I can think that YOU haven’t heard it.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Your ignorance of such efforts doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

          • fiona64

            Then you must not be paying attention to your fellow travelers …

          • expect_resistance

            Really? You need to get out more.

          • HeilMary1

            Personhood bills criminalize most contraceptives.

          • lady_black

            Oh you are just SO full of crap. You were just talking about it in another comment.

      • expect_resistance

        Look who the cat dragged in.

      • lady_black

        Fertility is a disease. Most women spend 30 years avoiding it.

      • fiona64

        I’m sorry; that was not nearly histrionic enough. You’ll have to try harder next time.

      • Arekushieru

        So, being fertile and punishing a woman by forcing her to gestate a fetus after she had consensual sex with a man (who, I might add, doesn’t have to worry about the ‘consequences’ of consensual sex, in EITHER case) isn’t something that can be unwanted and isn’t something that denies women their freedoms, ESPECIALLY the same freedoms as men? WOW, sicko.

        • Nordog6561

          I bet you’re one of those brain trusts who think that if I refuse to pay for your chemical castration then I’m making a war on women by not allowing you to contracept.

          • Arekushieru

            Well, gee, let’s see, someone who thinks women who believe fertility is a disease are whiners and that punishing women by forcing them to gestate after consensual non-procreative sex is just hunky-dory is now telling me that if I think that oppose paying for contraception so that poor women can purchase contraception just like a wealthy woman can AND would never accept my opposition to paying for their wars that ACTUALLY kill innocent life is a war on women, I’m a brain trust but ASSumes that I’M the one who is ‘stupid’? Wow, the ignorance of antis is REALLY astounding.

          • Nordog6561

            Really, don’t you have an overflowing port-a-potty you can crawl back into?

          • expect_resistance

            That has to be better than the rock you crawled out from under.

          • Nordog6561

            I’m not surprised you would feel more at home in raw sewage than under a rock.

          • expect_resistance

            Like I said I’d rather be there than hang out with you a woman hating liar.

          • Nordog6561

            Maybe we can make arrangements for you to jump into a toilet soon, if that’s really what you want. I’m sure Fiona won’t mind you keeping her company.

          • expect_resistance

            I would much rather be there then the cesspool that is NRO or LAN and be surrounded by bigots and control freaks that want to control women’s sexuality.

          • Nordog6561

            Yes, we know. But by all means, say it a few more times.

            And by all means, jump in.

          • expect_resistance

            You kind of slow it might take a few more times.

          • Nordog6561

            Plus, you need hobby.

          • expect_resistance

            If I did need a hobby which I don’t it wouldn’t be scrapbooking.

          • Nordog6561

            Well, just give it up. The other girls will only make fun of you for a little while.

          • expect_resistance

            I like hobbys that include power tools or sharp implements like knives. Why give up you’re my “special” NRO @troll. This is fun. Aren’t you having fun?

          • Nordog6561

            Oh yeah, sure. I love reminding ghouls that they are covered in blood.

          • expect_resistance

            I take it you don’t know how to use power tools. What’s your hobby? Harassing and bullying women.

          • Nordog6561

            Power tools? Really? You’re going to go all Alpha Male and talk about power tools?

            LOL

          • expect_resistance

            What’s your problem with that? I also have a wide variety of hand tools and saws in case of a power outage or grid collapse. I’m wicked with a chainsaw or an axe. I like to build things and chop wood for fires, nothing wrong with that.

          • Nordog6561

            No, nothing wrong with any of that.

            But your use of that to bolster your public persona as a man is hilarious.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m not a man I’m all woman. Right now I’m in my moon time (aka on the rag) and feel very much a woman.

          • Nordog6561

            Whatever.

            Power tools make neither the man nor the woman.

            But they make great stuff.

          • expect_resistance

            Right you have to know how to use a tool. There are so many power tools on my wish list. Although I like hand tools as well. There is nothing like using you’re own muscle to make it work. Next weekend we are chopping down a tree. I hate to do this but it’s half dead. Anyway we are opting for a large Sweedish handsaw to do the job. Sorry totally off topic.

          • Arekushieru

            Okay, if you read my most recent post before I changed it, I apologize for it. You didn’t mean what I thought you meant. And that was an assumption on my part, one I feel for which it is only right to apologize.

          • expect_resistance

            Also, my husband would very much disagree with you. He loves to watch me use power tools.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Also, my husband would very much disagree with you. He loves to watch me use power tools.<<

            Watch out. It may be a trick to get you to do all the projects.

          • expect_resistance

            I know I do a lot of the plumbing too. But he’s an awesome cook and he’s great in bed. I have to keep him. How can I not?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Lucky duck.

          • expect_resistance

            Thank you. Ive shared a lot of what I post with him. He likes it that I voice my opinion. He’s a feminist and understands. I love sharing your blog with him and your posts.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Give him a friendly little pat from me. Lucky duck.

          • expect_resistance

            Will do. Sorry to sound cheesy, but with all sincerity I’m a lucky duck to be part of the community here. I’ve never fit in and feel like I fit in here. Thanks.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            We are odd but we are fun. Who could ask for more?

          • lady_black

            I have a “no tools without direct supervision” rule for my husband. Every time he picks up a tool, he breaks something. He has no idea how to read exploding diagrams for putting things together, either. I just accept that he has no mechanical aptitude whatsoever.

          • Arekushieru

            Who says power tools are only for men? You? The little boy misogynist? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I needed that!

          • lady_black

            I like power tools too. Got a problem with that?

          • Nordog6561

            4 D-Cell vibrators aren’t really power tools.

          • Th_Ph

            LOL!

          • Arekushieru

            Thanks for admitting that you’re a ghoul! And covered in the blood of all the women whose deaths you salivate over.

          • Arekushieru

            Sorry, you may be only a boy, but the female posters on here are WOMEN.

          • HeilMary1

            Hey, how about the 800 infants dumped in a septic tank outside a Catholic mother and baby “home” in “pro-life” Ireland? — that tells us what you fetal idolaters really think of the already born.

          • Arekushieru

            No, the only toilet would be in the same place that YOU inhabit, since you like to be there to make sure that the women you throw in that pile of crap CAN’T crawl back out. Oops.

          • HeilMary1

            Maybe Nordog’s birth caused its’ poor mother bladder and bowel incontinence. Actress June Allison, who became more famous with all her Depends commercials, was surprised to find out that her own mother relied on them.

          • expect_resistance

            Speaking of toilets, I just got banned from LAN. I’m passing out cigars and shots of scotch. Cheers!

          • HeilMary1

            Your child-raping, womb-trafficking Vatican banned priests’ marriages to the “piles of dung” mothers of their kids, so that should give you a clue why women are desperate to avoid pelvic floor-shredding childbirth.

          • Nordog6561

            Moloch called. He wants his child sacrifice back.

          • Arekushieru

            Wow, so Pro-‘Life’ of you. NOT. We already knew that this isn’t about life for you people anyways. Just punishing women for consensual, non-procreative sex, and, especially if you’re an anti-choice male, just patting yourself on the back for so ‘judiciously’ avoiding that gamete crapshoot. Freak.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, that would be you. I don’t throw women under the bus and then blame them for not being able to get out from underneath it. AS I said above. TBSVFS. Read below for your small mind to comprehend what I say about the toilet section only being located in the anti-choice misogynist section, btw.

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killer, did you know obstetric fistulas only became somewhat fixable 150 years ago from Dr. Marion Sims’ gruesome experiments on afflicted slaves? Even today, incontinence remains a big problem for mothers with all those Depends and failed vaginal mesh commercials.

          • Nordog6561

            >>Mother killer, did you know obstetric fistulas only became somewhat fixable 150 years ago from Dr. Marion Sims’ gruesome experiments on afflicted slaves?<<

            So, the ghoulish nature of "women's health" has a long pedigree.

            That's even before Margaret Sanger decided to wipe out non-whites with contraception and abortion.

          • Arekushieru

            Margaret Sanger was ANTI-ABORTION, unlike YOUR ilk, who are merely anti-choice. That’s DESPITE the fact that her OWN mother died after some 17 pregnancies. She has been ON RECORD to state that she abhors abortion. Oops? Margaret Sanger gave black people the SAME freedom to plan their families that their wealthier WHITE counterparts enjoyed almost without aid. If she had NOT done that, then you people would be complaining about how Margaret Sanger wanted to keep black people poor and second class citizens. But, of course, that’s a favourite tactic of antis, damned if you do, damned if you DON’T. Contraception REDUCES the rate of abortion, just ONE example of how Margaret Sanger walked the walk, while your ilk merely talked the talk.

            The ghoulish nature of antis has an even longer pedigree. Slaves being forced to birth their ‘master’s’ children and being forcibly separated from them, pregnant female slaves being whipped in such a manner that the fetus was protected all the while its maternal host was reduced to bloody strips. Dr. Marion Sims is a representative of YOUR movement, btw.

            Women’s health is GROSSLY affected by obstetric fistulas. Any relief from it is progress. So, if you weren’t the fucking POS that you are, you wouldn’t dismiss women’s health so casually. It’s a LOT more complications than YOU’LL ever have to face, as a MALE, after all. Oops.

      • HeilMary1

        $5,000 to $5,000,000 medical bills per childbirth prove fertility is a zillion deadly diseases.

    • Bobbybestcat

      in a word….wrong

      • night porter

        You must not spend much time amongst pro liars. Its all about punishing women for having sex.

        • Bobbybestcat

          I realize that’s your perception, but you are way off base. We (I’m prolife, RELIGIOUS and a woman) don’t care how much nonprocreative sex anybody has. We do care that a new life is snuffed out once created. Given that it’s 2014 and we (a) have scientific evidence of the uniqueness of each new creation and (b) quite excellent contraception, I do not understand why people are becoming pregnant unwillingly in the enormous numbers that they are.

          • Arekushieru

            Uh, you are really ignorant, I guess. Your political allies oppose contraception and comprehensive sex ed. AND the majority of woman who have abortions use some form of birth control. Even WITH perfect use, contraception fails. That SHOULD tell you something. But, I forgot. I’m talking to an ignorant anti-choicer.

          • Bobbybestcat

            Yet I can speak intelligently and without insults, but I’m ignorant. OK. Nevertheless, yep, contraception fails, but in the number equal to elective abortion? That’s some pretty bad contraception. My “allies” could not care less who you have sex with or how often. Knock yourself out. But, if you create a child, that child gets to live. It’s as simple as that. I am PRO CHOICE FOR THE CHILD.

          • Unicorn Farm

            ‘Yet I can speak intelligently and without insults, but I’m ignorant.”

            Yes. Yes you are. But chin up, admitting it is the first step.

            “OK. Nevertheless, yep, contraception fails, but in the number equal to elective abortion? That’s some pretty bad contraception.”

            You don’t know much about percentages, do you? Add that to your list items about which you are ignorant.

            ” My “allies” could not care less who you have sex with or how often.”

            Really? ‘Cause you all spend a LOT of time talking about it….

            “But, if you create a child, that child gets to live.”

            Nope. I’ll have an abortion.

            “It’s as simple as that. ”

            It’s not, actually.

            “I am PRO CHOICE FOR THE CHILD.”

            YELL IT LOUDER WE CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!!!!

          • Arekushieru

            You insult women with every word out of your mouth. Telling other women that they’re non-persons, but YOU are the only one who gets to insult? WOW.

            And you just said you are Pro-Choice for every person who wants to violate another’s body. SICK.

            Also, when women are denied the same freedom as men to have sex with impunity (meaning without being forced to face the ‘consequences’ of the functions of gamete production), you ARE saying that women should be punished for non-procreative sex (but only women)! Glad I could clear that up for ya!

          • fiona64

            Nevertheless, yep, contraception fails, but in the number equal to elective abortion?

            First, “elective” means a scheduled procedure (as opposed to an emergency one). One does not, for example, decide that today would be a good day to get an elective cholecystectomy.

            Furthermore, 60 percent of women who seek abortions were using contraception during the month in which they conceived, The remaining cohort includes women who were trying to conceive and whose wanted pregnancies went wrong.

            Since 70 percent of unplanned pregnancies are carried to term, I wonder what you’re bitching about.

            But, if you create a child, that child gets to live

            I almost died gestating a wanted pregnancy. Should my tubal ligation fail, there will be an abortion scheduled so fast that your head will spin off. You do NOT get to decide how much medical risk a total stranger must take (and all pregnancies are risky … the amount of risk cannot be predicted until a woman is actually pregnant).

            It’s as simple as that.

          • lady_black

            That “child” (which is not a child) doesn’t get to use my body without ongoing consent. Neither do my born children. Neither do you. And it doesn’t matter if my refusal means you die. The fetal version of you had no rights that the you of today has. In fact, it has LESS rights,

          • night porter

            Do you permit abortion in the case of rape?

          • Bobbybestcat

            Since abortion IS permitted in any case, my permission is irrelevant. Do I approve? Not personally, though I can understand how that decision could be made. However, if people would limit abortion to rape (incest would fall under rape as well) and life of mother it would be a massive improvement.

          • night porter

            Why should a rape victim be permitted to abort?

          • Bobbybestcat

            I know you’re being facetious, so in reply I’d like to say “thanks for seeing it my way.” But since I know what you’re really after, it is because the rape victim had no say in the matter and wasn’t a willing participant in sex. It is wrong that a baby would have to die because of it, but I understand the mindset of those who choose this.

          • night porter

            Yeah.

            So you admit that you seek to punish women for having consensual non-procreative sex.

            Hey, you said that abortion is murder. In your dream world, if abortion was illegal tomorrow, and embryos were persons, should a woman go to jail for 1st degree murder if she aborts at say 4 weeks gestation by using an abortion pill purchased online?

          • HeilMary1

            How about those 40 year jail sentences for miscarriages in Catholic El Salvador? — no wonder Salvadorans are fleeing here!

          • Arekushieru

            So, if you can understand that mindset you should also be able to understand the mindset of women who wish to abort for any other reason, not LEAST being that forced gestation is equivalent to forced sex. Oops.

          • fiona64

            But since I know what you’re really after, it is because the rape
            victim had no say in the matter and wasn’t a willing participant in sex.

            Consent to sex is NOT consent to gestation.

          • lady_black

            So you wish to punish women for having sex. Glad we cleared that up. Now run along, child. You will NEVER be permitted to punish women for having sex.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Why don’t you explain to this Father why his wife giving birth to and/or carrying a dying deformed fetus to term would be a massive improvement? I would love to see that scene.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo

          • lady_black

            Really? I don’t see that as any kind of “improvement.” And you do not help your case by thinking insurance shouldn’t cover contraception without co-pay. That idea leads to more abortion. Women in a study given access to LARCs without cost consideration had reduced unplanned pregnancy, and a 75% lower rate of abortion than would be expected.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, that may be you, but I’ve spoken to many a ‘pro-lifer’, generally of the Catholic variety, who says that it’s a sin to have sex while using contraception because you’re not ‘open to life’. I do realize that isn’t everyone, but there are quite a few.

          • Arekushieru

            I would actually say that it’s the majority of them. Sadly.

          • Bobbybestcat

            Well, first of all…how refreshing to have a discussion with someone who can voice an opinion without throwing insults around. Kudos to you. Yes, I understand the Catholic opinion (and can see the merit of it actually) but such a thing would never become law and, sin or not, don’t see even Catholics lobbying to outlaw contraception. If somebody is sensibly and reasonably trying to make a point, that’s not the same as forcing a political option.

          • night porter

            They aren’t so stupid as to think that they can outlaw contraception, but they have partnered up with the evangelicals to shame women for having the wrong kind of sex – and anti abortion/contraception is a great way to rally the base.

            Did you know that pro-life nutjobs routinely picket Planned Parenthood clinics that don’t even do abortions? yeah…

          • Jennifer Starr

            What really annoys me is the misconception that if you use contraception you must be leading some kind of wild life. That seems to run rampant in conservative media these days, despite the fact that conservative–and yes, even Catholic women–use contraception at the same rate as everyone else.

          • Bobbybestcat

            Yes, they do. Not everybody marches in lock step. Not everybody, in fact I would say most people, thinks people who use contraception are wild. From a conservative perspective, we’re just weary of hearing how awful we are to think people should buy their own and govt intrusion into private sector. You’ve been a pleasure Jennifer, but I won’t be responding on this thread any longer. There is no reason for the invectives thrown at people with a different opinion. Long live free speech, huh?

          • night porter

            You’ve been a pleasure Jennifer, but I won’t be responding on this thread any longer.

            Yeah, because your arguments are worthless. In fact, I wouldn’t even call them arguments.

          • fiona64

            From a conservative perspective, we’re just weary of hearing how awful
            we are to think people should buy their own and govt intrusion into
            private sector.

            And yet another one who does not understand how health insurance works.

            It is part of *total compensation.* It is *earned* in lieu of higher pay and, in many cases, the employee *still* has to pay part of the bill. “No additional co-pay” does NOT mean “someone else is buying the pills.”

            Jesus wept; are all of you *really* this stupid?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You reap what you sow. You used insults here from the getgo.

          • expect_resistance

            The Catholic Church is forcing their theology on all of us. Especially women.

          • HeilMary1

            Most GOP bills kowtow to the pedophile-protecting Vatican.

          • night porter

            Yeah?

            Which is why girls are told that if they have sex that they will be the equivalent of ‘used gum stuck to someone’s foot?’

            That single mothers are told by the religious right/GOP that they are the root of all evil and the reason why the economy is failing and crime is up etc etc etc

            And I have heard, from many a pro-liar, that girls should be shamed for getting pregnant, and shamed for getting an abortion. That, basically, girls should be shamed for having the wrong kind of sex.

          • Bobbybestcat

            Wow, I have NEVER heard any of that after 1955. I do, however, tell my SON that sex is not a game and women are not objects to be used. I’ve also told him that should he and a girl ever become pregnant that I WILL TAKE IN THE BABY…..NEVER EVER KILL IT. People SHOULD be ashamed for getting an elective convenience abortion…it’s murder.

          • night porter

            I guess you haven’t heard of purity culture then?

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/05/sex-and-chewing-gum-the-danger-of-purity-culture.html

            Ave Maria believes that any action ‘specifically intended to prevent procreation’—including contraception and sterilization—is morally wrong,” the Sept. 12 filing said. “Simply routing the form through HHS is a distinction without a difference. Indeed, HHS concedes that the augmented rule simply provides an ‘alternative’ that has the exact ‘same’ effect as before.”

            The “effect” that it wants to avoid is to take part in any process that ends with their employees receiving insurance coverage for contraceptives like the morning-after pill or an IUD. The Becket Fund, a conservative legal group defending Ave Maria and about 40 like-minded nonprofits, tipped its hand as to the goal when speaking for its other client, Little Sisters of the Poor

            ——

            Pro life groups routinely give ‘abstinence only’ speeches at schools, and they tell girls that if they have the sex, that they will be nothing more than a disgusting piece of used gum or a toothbrush.

            http://www.densitydesign.org/ddfs13/used-toothbrushes-chewed-up-gums-and-education/index.html#1

          • HeilMary1

            Litter Sister Sosefina Amoa smothered her secret newborn a couple days after she joined her Washington, DC convent. The antis think infanticide is more moral than contraception and abortion!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Your Son is not in charge of any pregnancy he helps create.
            You better be very nice to that girl pregnant, not like the snarky biotch you are here, because she does not have to take it anymore.

          • fiona64

            Wow, I have NEVER heard any of that after 1955

            Been to a Mormon Young Women’s meeting lately?

            People SHOULD be ashamed for getting an elective convenience abortion…it’s murder.

            Nope. I am sick and tired of explaining this. Murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought.

            Even when abortion was illegal (for approximately 70 years, BTW) in this country, it still wasn’t murder.

          • HeilMary1

            ALL abortions are medical SELF-DEFENSE. What fetuses, wife-dumping GOPers and pedophile priests do to millions of women IS MURDER.

          • lady_black

            No it’s NOT murder. Murder has a definition. Abortion doesn’t fit. And unfortunately for you and your son, neither do you have ANY say about an abortion, nor can you take their child. Learn to live with the disappointment.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am pro life, a religious Christian and a woman.
            I think you should butt out of the sexual/family life of women you will never know.
            I am pro the privacy and autonomy of women in their fertility and health.
            I am not pro sanctimonious shitweasels who come here and trash women in general for shitz and giggles.

          • fiona64

            quite excellent contraception,

            You are aware that all contraception, including surgical sterilizations, has a known failure rate, right?

            Well, now you are …

          • HeilMary1

            Do you realize that Goddess gave women hundreds of natural abortifacients, like coffee, wine, and tobacco, so they wouldn’t suffer deadly, divorce-causing obstetric fistulas? You’ve given yourself many abortions, assuming you have sex.

          • lady_black

            This is none of your business.

        • expect_resistance

          Look another NRO troll.

          • Bobbybestcat

            Funny, disagree with someone and you’re a troll. LOL

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, shocking that you post at NRO and Breitbart.

          • Bobbybestcat

            so what….I read the article and had some thoughts.

          • expect_resistance

            I have no problem with trolls posting, just don’t get abusive. I welcome debate unlike the posters at NRO who flag anyone’s comments they don’t agree with even if it doesn’t violate the TOS, posters like Th_Ph or Nordog who gleefully get off on flagging feminists at NRO.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            OUR DISGUSTING NO GOOD VERY BAD MODERATORS BANNED NRO HERE.

          • fiona64

            I doubt you’ve ever had an actual thought.

      • Arekushieru

        So, contraception and comprehensive sex ed being opposed does NOT lead to more abortions? Also, if you aren’t NEARLY as dense as you make yourself out to be, you would realize that some of your political allies ARE opposing contraception and comprehensive sex ed. TBSVFS. OOPS?

  • expect_resistance

    Hey mods, please leave all comments up. We want to see what the anti-choicers are saying. The truth of their stupidity and anti-woman hate should be seen by all so we know what evil we are dealing with.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Correct. Whose side are they on? When they erase their filthy and abusive comments they make us look overstated in our responses.

      • Arekushieru

        This… is very true!

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Okay, I went to the facebook page and told them so.
          Are that many of us, beside the well known tone troller, flagging these comments?
          We need the downvotes back.
          We need the immoderate moderation gone.

          • Arekushieru

            Well, we still have them, but they just don’t show up in the count. Which I do, indeed, find irritating, though.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Correct. Should have said we want the numbering of downvotes back.

          • fiona64

            The disappearance of downvote numbers pisses me off. Like I said, I only flag for flagrant violations of TOS …

            This latest invasion of Freakburger’s flying monkeys is something else again.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            We do not need moderation except in extreme circumstances. They are killing us with goody two shoes BS.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes! They need to trust us a little more. We are big girls we can do this.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            All of them stupid and mean.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m banned from LAN, yahooooll! freedom from the oppressive forced birthers!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oh noooooz! Whatever will you do? Badge of honor, you wear it well.

          • expect_resistance

            I will proudly wear it as a badge of honor. I’m celebrating and passing out cigars, scotch, cake, if we were in Colorado joints. Just celebrating, cheers! Glad to be part of the banned group.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I think I will fire one up in your honor. Party!

          • night porter

            Disqus devs removed downvotes.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m banned from LAN let’s celebrate!

          • night porter
          • expect_resistance

            It does feel good to be liberated from LAN. I’ve never come across so many uptight judgemental people.

            I think the final straw with Calvin could have been when I gave him sex advice and told him how to practice putting on a condom. Or it could have been suggesting I need a spanking for being a bad girl. (Yes much sarcasm) or when I finally told him what a pompous control freak jerk he is. Anyway felt good. Thanks!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Whooo Hoooo! Party time!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            They removed the addition function. They say the downvotes still work.

          • night porter

            Right. Just invisible yeah?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            That is what they say on their blog.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            That is what they say. The little red down arrow still comes on. I have no idea if disqus is telling truth or not.

          • fiona64

            Yep, and when this stupid “improvement” came along that showed you every upvote along with the replies, the clamor to get rid of this new system and bring back the downvote tally was *huge.*

            But no … apparently they were worried that some people would get their fee-fees hurt if a zillion people downvoted their nonsense and everyone could see it.

          • night porter

            Oh, and it is buggy as hell. Sometimes replies ONLY show in the upvotes section, and not where they are supposed to be!

          • HeilMary1

            I liked the greying out of unpopular comments — they could still be read.

          • expect_resistance

            I miss that too.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I thought I was imagining that or my old eyes were not working.

    • Jennifer Starr

      I second that. Leave the comments up. please.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Back to the facebook page.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    MODERATORS – STOP RAPING THIS BOARD. We will call you when and if we need you. We do not need you to destroy the conversation on this board and any relevance a response we make has.
    STOP RAPING THE BOARD – YOUR MODERATION SUCKS THE BIG BADOODIE.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Yes, please–this needs to stop. It kills conversation when the posts keep disappearing.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I typed that on their facebook page. Please do the same.

    • lady_black

      One of my posts was deleted that didn’t violate TOS. The one where I accused a certain anti-choicer for opposing women who were rape victims from aborting was an apology for rapists rights. I have no idea why it was deleted.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        They just answered me from facebook. They want examples of comments that were deleted. IOW they want me to do their work for them and prove their moderation is bad. Jackasses.

        • fiona64

          Yes, because once something is deleted we can just go back and retrieve it. Argh.

      • fiona64

        A couple of mine were deleted as well. I am guessing that Freakburger’s Flying Monkeys are at it again and the mods are auto-deleting. It’s ridiculous.

  • expect_resistance

    I’m officially banned at LAN. I finally gave Calvin a piece of my mind. Good riddance!

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Good. I might go there just to read it.

      • expect_resistance

        I also gave him sex advice, told him how to practice putting on a condom, told him to get laid, told him he should spank me because I’m a “bad girl.” He told me I was caught red handed and I was bad. I couldn’t help myself. He’s so repressed. I think I also told him if he doesn’t want to have sex then get a bj or jerk on off.

        • Unicorn Farm

          Hahahahah! He’s been waiting to spank someone else his whole life….

          • expect_resistance

            he must think I’m the spawn of evil now. I iz laughing.

          • Unicorn Farm

            A well-deserved laugh! I’ve banned from that festering hole of a website for more than two years now…

        • Jennifer Starr

          You are awesome :)

          • expect_resistance

            Thank you.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You told Freakburger to get laid? His Mommy will not like that. LMAO!

          • expect_resistance

            Yes. he is so uptight. He at least should relax a little.

    • lady_black

      Link please.

      • fiona64

        Seconded. I want to see it!