How the Pro-Choice Movement Excludes People With Disabilities


In a piece for RH Reality Check last month, Erin Matson highlighted anti-abortion groups’ false advocacy for people with disabilities. As Matson put it, it’s “well past time” for feminists to more robustly utilize a disability rights lens so anti-choicers can’t continue to monopolize the discourse.

It’s true that, for political reasons, we can’t afford for those on the other side to be the only ones talking about this issue. But I’ll go a step further: If we in the pro-choice movement don’t start paying serious attention to the ways in which our own practices contribute to the dehumanization of people with disabilities, we can’t claim to operate under a reproductive justice framework at all.

As Matson wrote, such a framework pushes people at the margins “to the center of analysis and activism.” For the most part, however, the reproductive rights movement has failed to publicly connect insidious abortion legislation with its effects on people with disabilities. In Texas, for instance, abortion advocates have heavily promoted discourse about how HB 2 has affected poor, rural women of color, especially in the Rio Grande Valley. Such rhetoric is certainly legitimate and worthy of attention. However, feminists have said little about how a pregnant person with mobility issues might have a more difficult time reaching their nearest abortion clinic; how a person with a chronic condition may have a more expensive abortion because of medical complications; or how a pregnant person with mental illness might have to choose their medications over their pregnancy. Though these issues have always existed, restrictive abortion legislation like HB 2 exacerbates the situation by closing clinics, thus forcing patients to travel long distances, pay higher costs for their procedure, or both. And the narrative surrounding HB 2 is just one example; when it comes to restrictive laws’ impact on people who need reproductive health care, those with disabilities are repeatedly left out of the picture.

At the same time, the kinds of disability-related rhetoric that have made it into public awareness ultimately do more harm than good. The most common example of the pro-choice movement’s ableism lies in many activists’ decision to call attention to “fetal abnormalities,” particularly when explaining the necessity of legal later abortions. Abortion advocates frequently remind the public that such “abnormalities”—conditions that could manifest as disabilities after a fetus is born—are usually not discovered until the 20-week mark of pregnancy or later.

This strategy attempts to justify later abortions to anti-choicers by trading on the rhetoric that some abortions—of fetuses with “abnormalities”—are inarguably necessary. Rather than reasoning that all abortions should be equally accessible no matter what, many pro-choice advocates lean on the argument that of course people, including anti-choicers, would opt out of having a disabled child if they had the means. Thus, later abortions should be legal.

And this plan often does work. The text of HB 2, Texas’ aforementioned omnibus anti-abortion bill, explains that the 20-week ban does not apply to fetuses “with severe fetal abnormalities.” The fetal abnormality exception has been publicly supported both by Wendy Davis and her gubernatorial opponent Greg Abbott, suggesting, again, that even anti-abortion politicians seem to relax their positions when confronted with the idea of a fetus with severe disabilities.

But I have a problem with the idea that certain fetuses are more available for abortion because of their apparently disabled futures. When people who aren’t usually pro-choice (like most Texas legislators) start making exceptions for fetuses with “abnormalities” in the same way that feminists do, I get nervous. I have to conclude that the rhetorical choice to justify abortion this way sacrifices the humanity of all people with disabilities on the altar of feminism.

The “fetal abnormalities” argument actually does devalue the lives of real people. When we rely on that stance, we’re trading on discourse that says, “No one would want to live if they had disabilities like those,” or “No one would want to take care of children with those kinds of disabilities.” What does that say about the people who are living with disabilities like those? That they should have never been born?

Of course, feminists’ most commonly invoked “fetal abnormalities” are the fatal kinds. And no one should have to carry a non-viable fetus to term if they don’t want to, which is one reason later abortions should always be available. Yet only giving examples of non-viable fetuses as representatives of those with “abnormalities” obscures the breadth of people’s reasons for obtaining later abortions. In a world where the majority of fetuses diagnosed with non-fatal Klinefelter, Turner, and Down Syndromes are terminated, for instance, we can’t afford to pretend that later abortions happen only for reasons that make us feel comfortable.

It would be better to use specific examples, such as, “We need legal later abortions because sometimes fetuses are not viable,” or “We need legal later abortions because people get medical diagnoses without the resources to make sense of them,” rather than, “We need later abortions because sometimes fetuses are abnormal.” The latter is just too broad for its impact to be anything but dangerous.

By marginalizing people who are already excluded by systems of able-bodied privilege in this way, the feminist movement is working in opposition to a reproductive justice framework. At the same time, as a young, queer, poor mother of color who has experienced disabilities and sometimes still does, I understand the fear of giving birth to a baby with disabilities. It is incredibly difficult to raise children with disabilities in a neoliberal, capitalist society that creates obstructions to accessibility for them and those who support them. I can never condemn anyone who has been in the position of having to make that decision.

So I’m not interested in criticizing individual choices. Rather, I’m calling attention to the (supposedly) feminist discourse that reproduces stereotypes about people with disabilities, in turn reinforcing the barriers to rights they already confront. My focus is on those who shape the debate: media outlets, organizations, corporations, and people who are trying to change the culture around abortion. Because if we’re truly interested in crafting a just movement, we have to stop emphasizing narratives that implicitly encourage the abortions of fetuses with disabilities.

For example, as the president of Fund Texas Choice, a nonprofit organization that funds abortion travel for low-income Texans, I have a responsibility to use words with care. The truth is, I’ve used ableist terminology in fundraising campaigns before. In my experience, donors more frequently contribute to a client’s travel if their story is extreme; buzzwords like “fetal abnormalities” instantly place an abortion story into that category.

Lately, though, I’ve realized that making the money flow more quickly in this way isn’t just unethical—it’s a bad long-term strategy. Promoting “compelling” stories only hurts our ability to fight for the “boring” ones, too: the people who need abortions because they just don’t want to carry a fetus, give birth to a baby, or raise a child. As Merritt Tierce reminds us in the New York Times, “We have to stop categorizing abortions as justified or unjustified.”

By contributing to society’s hunger for a “compelling” abortion story, we’re reinforcing the idea that abortion is an exceptional right, not a human right, and that only certain kinds of “undesirable” pregnancies fit into that exception.

When it comes to justifying the legal necessity of later abortions, we should shift our focus to the other dangers of outlawing those procedures. For example, the high cost of abortions, especially when compounded by travel expenses, can mean that it takes time for a person living in poverty to save up enough money for the procedure. Of course, by the time they have amassed that money, they’re several more weeks along, and their procedure costs even more. Emphasizing this narrative brings attention to the difficulties of abortion access for poor people in a country that has expressly prohibited, via the Hyde Amendment, the expenditure of federal funds such as Medicaid for abortion. This new focus sets the stage for anti-Hyde Amendment activism. In other words, intentionally not talking about fetuses with disabilities is strategic, beneficial, and powerful.

Another way feminism can do better at centering a variety of needs is by supporting the leadership of people with disabilities. Having diverse people in charge means that ableist rhetoric will be more easily spotted, public events will become more accessible by necessity, and disability rights issues will become more intensely integrated into our reproductive rights work overall.

In addition, we also need to actively educate ourselves on disability rights issues and boost campaigns started by those within the community. For example, in the wake of the #SolidarityIsForTheAbleBodied movement, the lesson feminists should have learned is that being more attentive to the intersections between disability and race, class, sexuality, and gender requires work. Rather than expecting people with disabilities to do the educating on demand, it’s time for abled people in the pro-choice movement to start reading.

All I ask is that feminists acknowledge the systemic pressures felt by pregnant people whose fetuses have been diagnosed with a disability. I want to open up space for individuals to come forward and talk about their abortions without censorship. But if we don’t encourage a variety of narratives, we are contributing to the idea that certain abortions are justified and others aren’t. Until feminists begin to openly recognize and work against this argument, people with disabilities and those who care about them will continue to be alienated by pro-choice rhetoric. If feminists are going to claim to use a reproductive justice lens, we had better stop marginalizing the very people whose lives we’re claiming to save.

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To schedule an interview with contact director of communications Rachel Perrone at rachel@rhrealitycheck.org.

  • http://jillstanek.com/ Jill Stanek

    You claim to support women with disabilities but fight legislation that would make doorways wide enough for wheelchairs to fit through… ?

    • Nessie

      Get lost, stupid troll.

    • fiona64

      And don’t forget making sure janitor closets are wide enough. @@ <– Those are my eyes rolling.

      Don't pretend you're all about "patient safety," Stanek. We know better.

      • http://jillstanek.com/ Jill Stanek

        Mocking me while avoiding the topic is easy. Do you support legislation ensuring abortion clinic doorways are wide enough for wheelchairs? Because right now many aren’t.

        • fiona64

          I wasn’t mocking you, dearie (although now I feel compelled to do so). The width of janitorial closets is also cited as a requirement for ASCs.

          The American College of Obstetricians & Gynecologists has pointed out that these TRAP laws requiring women’s health clinics to meet the standards of an ASC are medically unnecessary and serve only to create barriers to care (which we all know is the goal anyway). http://www.acog.org/~/media/News%20Releases/20131220Release.pdf

          An oral surgeon’s office is not subject to these requirements, and yet oral surgery has a far higher complication rate than abortion. Where is your concern that the doorways at the dentist’s office are not wide enough, Jill?

          • lady_black

            The law says the doors at dentist’s offices must be wide enough to accommodate a wheelchair. Jill is doing what she does best. She’s lying.

          • Morgan

            That’s the ONLY thing she knows how to do. If her lips (or fingers in this case) are moving, she’s lying.

          • fiona64

            I was referring to the overall requirements to be an ASC; sorry if I wasn’t clear.

          • lady_black

            I know that. But Stanek was being deliberately disingenuous by claiming we are “opposed” to something the law has required of all businesses for decades now. I suppose it’s possible that she really IS that uninformed, but that would mean she’s too clueless to be commenting because she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.

          • fiona64

            Yep. During my last job with the DoD (which I left in 1998), the command decided to remodel the building’s entrance, which led into a WWII-era armory. They had to invert the design (a long, complicated story not worth going into here but that basically gave us a hideous greenhouse in the middle of the ingress) in order to add a wheelchair ramp outside … despite the fact that all of the offices in the building were on the second of the two floors (the downstairs was storage areas and a mess hall) and that there was no elevator. So yeah, she clearly has no idea what she’s talking about.

          • Ella Warnock

            The teeth! Won’t someone think of the poor, innocent, defenseless teeeeth!

          • fiona64

            I know; it’s a freakin’ tragedy! Why, they have human DNA! They need to be protected.

          • http://jillstanek.com/ Jill Stanek

            Funny you should mention janitorial closets, of all things. Having held a helpless little abortion survivor in a soiled utility closet until he died, I can attest to the fact some space is needed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pull, if you’ll pardon the expression, the other one.

          • fiona64

            Having held a helpless little abortion survivor in a soiled utility closet until he died,

            Have you considered a career writing fiction?

            Oh, wait. You already appear to have one. My apologies.

          • HeilMary1

            A new paperback genre: fetal porn fiction!

          • HeilMary1

            Jilted, if you and your fetus worshippers believed your own crap, you’d be attending each other’s bloody “baby” tampon funerals EVERY DAY, instead of invading our undies, looking for “crime scenes.” Truth be told, you are the Andrea Yates of “toilet drownings,” assuming any males had sex with you.

          • goatini

            That vile perjurer must be running scared from the unstoppable tsunami of women voting next month to protect their civil rights, if she has to slither over from her hate speech cesspool her own self to spew seditious anti-American hatred on innocent female citizens.

          • HeilMary1

            Thank you!

          • goatini

            That’s it, I’m out of here. I’ve had it with this censorship of the cold, hard FACTS about anti-American scum. Thank you, and those who upvoted your post and my deleted FACTS post, for your appreciation of the FACTS.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m going to email the mods on facebook–this deleting of posts that don’t violate TOS in any way is really getting out of hand–I encourage other posters to do the same.

          • night porter

            Do FB and email, as they have been ignoring FB.

          • Arekushieru

            Actually, I would equate Andrea Yates with any other VICTIM of Jill Stanek’s ravings.

          • refruits

            Bullshit.

          • goatini

            Notorious perjurer Stanek, still trying to catapult the same old tired bullshit that’s been proven to be bullshit. Isn’t it about time for you to go tell your flying monkeys that violence against innocent women with unwanted pregnancies is justified?

          • P. McCoy

            More space is needed in the closets where boys and youths raped by your clergy are hiding And dying on the inside. How many of those survivors have or are You willing to hold Jill? How many lifesite news articles or National Catholic Register articles have you written about them? They’re still alive you know, so are the perps too, but as a lemming and cultist a la Jim Jones’ follower you probably salivate getting the false azyme host from the hand roiling in filth from a victim’s unrepentant assualter- you have nerve to dictate morality to ME along with that woman hating anotherguy Catholic minon posting right after you do!

          • catseye

            Oh, BULLSHIT.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Drama Queen.

        • lady_black

          We already have such regulations. Have for more than 20 years. Sod off now.

        • anordinaryguy

          Thanks, Jill, for bravely standing up to these people and advocating what is right, moral, and true.

          • HeilMary1

            Panty sniffer, you must not be getting any at home. If you had real morals, you wouldn’t be using fetuses to kick women into early graves.

          • anordinaryguy

            It’s HeilMary, the little fascist wannabe!

          • HeilMary1

            No, Nazi Pope suck-up, my childbirth bladder and bowel-incontinent Munchausen by Proxy Catholic was urged by a playboy priest, who banged the Orioles’ wives, to chemically scald me head to toe as her permanent abstinence excuse since UNnatural Family Cramming threatened her with death by another pregnancy. Your child-raping cult made my life hell as it has for billions of other victims. I wish my mom had aborted me instead. Human puppy milling Catholicism has perverted you into a vicious vagina cop who ignores his own family, global starvation, plagues, wars, and child sex trafficking. Ebola could be closing in on your family, while Catholic computer cowboy you shames strangers about what’s in or not in their uteri. You want the U.S. to be just as gang- and mass grave-ridden as Catholic-ruined Latin America.

          • anordinaryguy

            Godwin’s Law again!

          • Arekushieru

            Repeating it three times WRONG, just makes you that much more IGNORANT, not right. Oops.

          • anordinaryguy

            I applied Godwin’s Law appropriate to the little fascist wannabe. Keep defending her, if you like. It’s laughable.

            You’re an advocate of killing unborn children.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No one’s talking about killing children. Except you.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, no killing or children involved in abortion, unless you are referring to the worlds youngest mother, Lina Medina. AW?

            No, you did not, I KNOW what Godwin’s Law means, unlike you. You failed to read the post where I showed that, didn’t you, probably because you KNOW I’m right. Hmm.

          • anordinaryguy

            “HeilMary1″ called another a Nazi. That’s classic Godwin’s Law.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope. Comparing one event to another thereby diminishing the importance of the latter is Godwin’s Law.

          • HeilMary1

            Stupid you refuses to admit that the Nazis OPPOSED abortion and that your favorite poops were collaborators. Big oops!

          • ljean8080

            If they opposed abortion,why were there women that the Nazis forced to get abortions?

          • HeilMary1

            Champagne time! — ljean8080 is back to scold me!

            Dearie, if you bothered to read the devilish details of Nazi history, you would know they practiced schizophrenic double standards. If Catholic anti-abortion Hitler had won the war, he and his anti-abortion terrorist buddy, Ante Pavelic of Croatia, would be “pro-life” saints today. The Vatican has already succeeded in electing several other Nazi collaborators to popedom and sainthood, including Pavelic’s best buds, Paul VI and Cardinal Stepinac. Pavelic’s death camps were funded by Paul VI to “fight abortion,” even though Pavelic bragged about gutting pregnant Serb Christian “heretics” AND THEIR “HERETIC” FETUSES.

            So your cult flip flopped between executing Aryan women for abortions to forcing abortions on non-Aryan “heretics.”

          • Ramanusia

            The guy who shares Adolph’s views on forced gestation and the humanization of women who has been hysterically projecting jus affinity to the nazis is who embodies classic Godwin’s Law. It’s what perpetual failures like yourself do when you can’t manage coherent argument.

          • goatini

            As the child of a survivor, I’m here to tell you that it is YOU who shares the Nazi view of subjugation of females as livestock for the State.

          • HeilMary1

            I’ll bet your parent has quite a story to tell.

          • Arekushieru

            The late Dr, Morgentaler is a survivor of the Holocaust. He is also the one who opened the clinics that now perform the majority of abortions, here, in Canada, especially Alberta (my own province). Seems to me he would be one to know whether abortion and the holocaust are in ANY way, comparable.

          • HeilMary1

            You support killing fetuses by denying their hosts contraception, sterilization, equal pay, medical care, pollution control, divorce from abusers, peace-based economies, etc.

          • anordinaryguy

            So now you’re reducing women to mere “hosts”? You have some serious problems.

          • Arekushieru

            No, YOU’RE the one who reduces women to meat around the uterus, however.

          • anordinaryguy

            Nope, not I. Try again.

          • Arekushieru

            So, granting more rights to fetuses and denying rights to women because pregnancy is natural is NOT treating women as meat around the uterus. Wow, you really DO have some unusual definitions!

          • HeilMary1

            Which explains why “happy family guy” is trolling here — he ain’t getting any from the Mrs. Meat-around-the-uterus!

          • Ramanusia

            Yup, you. Projecting again won’t change the truth of what you are or what you do in every post. This is your position and that of your church. Accept reality.

          • Ramanusia

            You enacted Godwin’s Law, because you are a fascist wanna be. You are being laughed at in your desperation and your belief in imaginary creatures, as well as your poor grasp of English and biology. You are an advocate of killing the born, both children and adult women. No such thing as an unborn child.

          • anordinaryguy

            So far, I seem to be running circles around you and your pro-death pals.

          • Ramanusia

            Well, you’re certainly running in circles, I guess that’s why you’re so dizzy and you’re the only one who is pro-death here, pal.

            You’ve got blood on your hands, you kill women and laugh about. A truly nasty piece of work, who is deeply delusional. You’ve literally never managed to win a single point, and you keep your record of ALWAYS losing going strong.

            Do get a clue.

          • goatini

            You’re an advocate of sedition against the United States of America and the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of its citizens. You’re also an anti-American fascist, as proven by # 5 in the 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism:

            5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

          • Ramanusia

            Um, you realize that you’re the one who invoked the right wing fascists whose ideology you share, right?

          • rabbitwithfangs

            Not really, cos the Pope really was in Hitler Youth. Or the one before. I couldn’t give a shit – they’re all evil in a white dress.

          • fiona64

            The previous one. Actually, Francis is shaking up the hierarchy *a lot* because he’s much more about the people than the office — and the more rigid folk at the Vatican are flipping their wigs over it.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, he may be Pro-Life but at least he’s focused more on actually helping people rather than sitting on his high pontificate horse.

          • Ramanusia

            Yes, we know you are a small fascist wannabe.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I BET IT IS THIS BIG —>.

          • goatini

            But # 5 in the 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism clearly proves that YOU are the fascist:

            5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

          • HeilMary1

            Odious one and Jilted should get a room so we don’t have to watch their cyber groping.

          • Ramanusia

            Omg, you called your mommy in to defend you! Too bad she didn’t do much to stop your customary whooping, and got herself defeated in the process.

          • anordinaryguy

            No whooping here. I, just one voice, seem to have triggered all of you to have nasty fits. It’s quite amusing.

          • Ramanusia

            Lots of whooping. You and your mommy got spanked. Idiocy, ignorance and hate do tend to provoke some nastiness, especially when you do it so nastily.

            I find your idiocy amusing, no fits, I know you’re the nasty, misogynistic proponent of death and suffering you proclaimed yourself to be the last go around.

            It takes just one voice like yours to kill women, thus every time a nasty ignoramus seeking to kill women yips up, you will be whooped. It’s a rather easy exercise, you’re not very bright, you’re easily defeated, and your nastiness pretty much causes you to defeat yourself.

            Go cry to your mommy.

          • P. McCoy

            Sticking up for women killing child raping cultists? Yeah, she’s right, moral and true as her masters.

            What’s more satanic? A fake satanic mass or a priest whose hands out communion as a sinless ‘alter christus’ with hands reeking of child rape a liar blaming it all on homo-sexuals?

          • goatini

            Notorious perjurer Stanek hasn’t anything remotely in common with anything “right, moral, and true”. She is vile, anti-American scum: a vicious, vile perjurer, a rapists’ rights apologist, a domestic terrorist, and a supporter of violence against women.

          • HeilMary1

            A quick google search revealed very little about her personal life, which leads me to believe that there are major embarrassing hypocrisy scandals in her personal life that she’s keeping a lid on, like several abortions for her pelvic floor health.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            She boogied faster than a speeding bullet. Totally outclassed.

        • HeilMary1

          Shouldn’t womb-trafficker-for-pedophile-priests you be demanding the same for all urology practices? After all, many unwanted pregnancies are preceded by urologists’ prescriptions for abortion-causing VIAGRA! If you can cut off men’s access to ED drugs, you can prevent many pregnancies from occurring in the first place. Of course, that would ruin the sex lives of countless priests and GOP wife-dumpers.

          • anordinaryguy

            So you hate men, too. Got it.

          • HeilMary1

            Only pompous mother maimers and murderers like you, pious panty sniffer.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Very true.

          • Arekushieru

            Whoops, wrong commenter, Jennifer! >_<

          • Jennifer Starr

            My brain. Correcting now.

          • anordinaryguy

            Yeah, ol’ fascist wannabe is not a man.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, I know you’re not. Any other little gems you’d care to share?

          • Arekushieru

            That was AWESOME, Jennifer!

          • Ramanusia

            So, you’re confessing that you and your boss are not men? Why the lying screen name then? Do you just wish that your fascist wannabe self were a man?

          • goatini

            Projecting your fascism on the innocent opposition again. From The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism:

            5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

          • anordinaryguy

            You have some weird fetish about sniffing panties. You should be institutionalized, baby-killing pervert.

          • Arekushieru

            Seriously, how much more IGNORANT can antis like you GET? Saying that men cause abortions because they can get prescriptions for Viagra at the local pharmacy without worrying about whether they’ll be covered or not, while contraception is constantly being threatened by religious fascists concerns over *their* freedom of religion being infringed upon, which at the same time increases abortion rates. So, now, opposing misogyny is misandry? Wow, you people need to get a freaking CLUE.

          • HeilMary1

            You nailed it!

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I like men. You don’t qualify.

          • anordinaryguy

            I was talking to the little fascist wannabe, not you. Take your insults and stick them…

          • Jennifer Starr

            I thought I was.

          • Arekushieru

            You’re talking to yourself? Weirdo.

            Btw, this is a PUBLIC forum. Missed that, didn’t ya?

          • anordinaryguy

            Reduced to throwing insults. Typical of your kind.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Whine, whine, whine.

          • Arekushieru

            So, insulting women is okay, but insulting men is not. Got it, misogynist.

          • anordinaryguy

            Dumb-assed misandrist!

          • Arekushieru

            No such thing as misandry. Also, opposing misogyny? Does not equal misandry. Get a clue. Ableism much?

          • anordinaryguy

            Misandry is the hatred of men.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Which you are not. We’ve already established this.

          • Arekushieru

            Which is why there’s no such thing as misandry? So… you’re point is…?

          • goatini

            No such thing.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Getting a mite grumpy now, aren’t we?

          • Ramanusia

            I”m quite certain that Arekushieru’s posterior is a far superior intellect than you.

          • Arekushieru

            LOL, too funny, Ramanusia, but much appreciated, anyways!

          • P. McCoy

            Ha! Catholic cultist family values obsess about your own sex life not others!

          • goatini

            So insulting women is okay, but insulting men is not. Same old shit from the same old misogynist.

          • P. McCoy

            Flagged for profanity and abuse take it to your cultists at Catholic Answer pallie

          • Nessie

            Look who’s throwing insults now.

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killer you is trafficking our wombs for pedophile priests.

          • Ramanusia

            Projecting again? Typical of yor kind.

          • goatini

            All you do is throw hate speech insults.

          • HeilMary1

            The odious idiot doesn’t get it that forced breeding IS fascism.

          • anordinaryguy

            There is no forced breeding.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, forcing women to gestate fetuses IS forced breeding.

          • anordinaryguy

            What’s the matter? Can’t women be adults and take responsibility for the consequences of their actions? It seem you’re the one insulting women.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Having an abortion is a way of taking responsibility. The fact that you disapprove is immaterial.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, forcing women to gestate a fetus simply because her biology demands that she be the one to gestate isn’t ‘taking responsibility’, It’s misogyny.

          • HeilMary1

            So women who smoke deserve no cancer treatments? You want sexually active women to be punished with yearly genital mutilation otherwise known as childbirth. You’re a Munchausen by Proxy monster.

          • ljean8080

            Some women want to have a baby.

          • HeilMary1

            Break out the champagne, everyone! — ljean8080 is back to scold me!
            Yes, dearie, I know many pregnancies are wanted, but the main conflicts center around unwanted pregnancies and their medical, financial and public health burdens on everyone.

          • ljean8080

            Not that you care,but I was gone because my sister passed away.

          • fiona64

            I am sorry for your loss. Truly, I am.

          • ljean8080

            Thanks,Fiona.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m so very sorry for your loss.

          • HeilMary1

            Not that you would care, but I was gone from here for 6 months, mainly because of scary bullying by my GOP boss. Not all disabled qualify for government aid or are supported by loving families like you.

          • ljean8080

            Sorry about your job.The only government aid I get is Social Security and after my sister died,the rest of my family jumped ship as fast as they could.

          • HeilMary1

            My family, including my snooty sister, jumped ship on me when I was a child. They also tried to sabotage my jobs, friendships, attempts at dating, and getting suicide-preventing plastic surgery. That your other relatives have abandoned you is proof that government safety nets are essential for the disabled.

          • HeilMary1

            Was your sister older or younger, was her death completely unexpected, and are you OK living alone, or do you have someone checking on you?

          • ljean8080

            I was the lAST to know,so it was a shock.I’m OK.

          • lady_black

            I’m truly sorry for your loss. I know what it’s like to lose a sibling.

          • ljean8080

            Thank you.What is there about a death,that brings out the worst in families?

          • HeilMary1

            Some members are selfish, while others are overwhelmed by their own calamities.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No kidding. You think?

          • fiona64

            I’m shocked, just shocked! Who knew that some women want to have babies?

            No love, a pro-choice *mother* who almost died due to pregnancy complications and will not go through that again

            Jesus wept; where do these idiots come from?

          • lady_black

            Yep I wanted to have a baby. That doesn’t mean four, five or six babies. Or a dozen, or nineteen. I’d have no hair left.

          • goatini

            Great. Some women don’t. And NEITHER woman’s decision is any of your f’n business.

          • expect_resistance

            And sone women don’t. Do you have a point? Or are you just stalking mary?

          • Ramanusia

            Sure, they. For some women, being an adult and taking responsibility is choosing to end an unwanted pregnancy. It seems the only one insulting women is you, again.

          • lady_black

            Having an abortion IS taking responsibility. Adults get to decide how to take responsibility. YOU don’t get to decide FOR them.

          • anordinaryguy

            It’s a cowardly, selfish act of killing–avoiding responsibility for one’s actions.

          • lady_black

            No. It’s accepting responsibility, and making an adult decision NOT to have a child/another child at the wrong time that the woman doesn’t WANT.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for proving once again that you view pregnancy as punishment.

            I’m guessing that this punishment is because those women didn’t want to sleep with *you* …

          • goatini

            Exercising my inalienable civil rights IS taking responsibility.

          • HeilMary1

            Criminalizing contraception and abortion IS forced breeding.

          • goatini

            If a female citizen is unable to exercise her civil rights, she IS sentenced to gestational slavery and forced breeding. We patriots are standing up to protect our civil rights from all attacks by anti-American haters of our nation, its citizens, and our rights.

          • Ramanusia

            So, you were talking to yourself? You are the only fascist wannabe here.

          • fiona64

            What’s the matter, widdle boy? Did the big, bad wady hurt your widdle feewings?

            It’s a public message board, loser. Anyone can respond to you as they so desire. “Man up.”

          • goatini

            But since YOU are the fascist, you’re just projecting again on to your innocent opposition. From The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism:

            5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

          • HeilMary1

            REAL men don’t enslave women as puppy mills for priests.

          • P. McCoy

            I don’t like rapists and priest predators-otherwise men are great as long as they know I won’t allow them to dominate me.

          • Arachne646

            I love my husband, and my son, who identifies as a feminist, most in the world. I’m a Christian, and I don’t hate anyone. Why wouldn’t I agree with HeilMary1’s post?

          • goatini

            Some men deserve it. Like you, for instance.

        • lady_black

          BULL.

        • P. McCoy

          Cultists like yourself need to be ignored. If you’re going to meddle in the sex lives of people, instead of strangers seeking abortion for non sentient entities, why don’t you get involved with protecting children and youth from your predator clergy? Please do not say :” well it’s only 2% of the clergy at fault so called the church is blameless.” That’s like saying 2% of poison in a glass of milk is small and the glass is safe to drink-NOT TRUE!

        • goatini

          I’ll not only mock you, I’ll call you out for the vile scum that you are: a vicious, vile perjurer, a rapists’ rights apologist, a domestic terrorist, and a supporter of violence against women. Go back to your fetid cesspool and STOP your anti-American hate speech against the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of American citizens.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Bugger off. You skeeve me.

    • lady_black

      Yeah… NO. That has nothing to do with anything. All doctor’s offices have doorways wide enough for wheelchair access. Beauty and barber shops have doors wide enough for wheelchair access, too. Because THAT’S THE LAW, kiddo. The law says (and has said for over 20 years) that all businesses open to the public must be wheelchair accessible. I remember my Nana having to put in a ramp to be legally compliant in her home-attached beauty salon. So take your smelly red-herring somewhere else, Jill. Nobody here is buying your “grandma stories.”

      • anordinaryguy

        And I’m not buying your, uhm, ‘Nana’ story. Jill is more credible than you and the rest of the toadies that routinely comment here.

        • lady_black

          I don’t care if you buy it or not, Mongo. The law is the law whether you buy it or not. What you’re saying is that my grandmother had a ramp built onto her shop just because she had a few thousand lying around with no other use for it, or just for sh*ts and giggles. That doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

          • anordinaryguy

            You’re assuming I believe your ‘Nana’ has or had a shop. I don’t believe much of what you say.

          • lady_black

            Too bad. You don’t deal well with reality. Prove that there aren’t ALREADY laws that require disabled access to public accommodations, since you’re such a know-it-all horse’s patoot. Or better yet, ask STANEK to prove it. She knows better. She’s just a liar and you will not see a reply to my comment from her.

          • Ramanusia

            Again, what does your belief have to do with reality? Do you not know such laws exist? So much for pretending to be knowledgeable. Your belief is not required for facts, nor does your disbelief make them any less true.

          • P. McCoy

            We don’t believe you either. The fact that you and Jill continue to be part of a child raping cult tells me how moral the both of you are.

            You both need to be locked up as enemies of the state shills for a foreign hostile power!

          • Arachne646

            Gee, this Canadian knows about the Americans with Disabilities Act that shook up things like that decades ago–guess those ordinary anti-choice trolls are too young to know about days before public buildings had to be “accessible”.

          • HeilMary1

            Including nudie bars that didn’t have wheelchair access!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            My Quaker Meetinghouse had to make alterations to our Colonial era building to make it wheelchair accessible 20 years ago.
            YOU ARE A LIAR.
            https://www.quakercloud.org/cloud/trenton-friends-meeting

        • HeilMary1

          You belong to the child-raping, Nazi-electing Catholic cult and you condemn us? Go change bed pans at an obstetric fistula clinic to get a clue about childbirth’s gruesome dangers.

          • anordinaryguy

            Godwin’s Law!

          • Arekushieru

            Nope. And still too ignorant to be believed.

          • anordinaryguy

            You’re the ass–supporting the little fascist wannabe.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, we don’t support you.

          • Arekushieru

            I’m not supporting you, so I can’t see how I’m supporting a fascist. Aw.

          • Ramanusia

            No one here was supporting you. Stop projecting your fascist wannabe ness.

          • goatini

            YOU are the fascist wannabe as proven by # 5 in the 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism:

            5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

          • P. McCoy

            Flagged for profanity and harassment. Getting sick of you repeating ‘unborn children’ as a brainwashing tactic to try to convince people here of this falsehood. ‘Unborn children’ is religious not scientific and no one here feels ‘ denial, guilt, regret, shame’ or what ever you think a woman should feel when having an abortion. Your ‘right to religion’does not include the right to practice defacto domestic terrorism at the behest of an enemy foreign power- the Catholic Church! So long,troll!

            Here we prefer born women and children to parasites and cultists who shill for theocracy-Enemies of the State, advocates of the Christian Taliban!

          • anordinaryguy

            Flag all you want. Ask me if I care?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You apparently care enough to post about it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Well said.

        • Nessie

          And what is that which makes her more “credible”?

        • Arekushieru

          Says one who FREQUENTLY appears as a usual suspect on the toady list, because that’s all anti-choicers have: regurgitated talking points. Oops. TBSVFS?

        • Jennifer Starr

          Jill Stanek and ‘credible’. Nope, I’m afraid they don’t go together.

          • Ella Warnock

            ‘Jill Stanek’ and ‘credible’ together would birth a dark singularity that would eventually consume the entire universe.

          • HeilMary1

            Ebola is striking impoverished, overpopulated nations where Catholic bishops burn disease-containing condoms.

        • Ramanusia

          Jill is proven liar, as are you. You have also been proven to be a brainwashed twit who believes that words don’t mean what they mean. You have demonstrated no ability to exercise judgement, so who cares what you consider credible, your too busy toadying up to the lies if your church and your movement, including liars like Jill. That you consider a debunked propagandist who makes her living lying to fools “credible” is proof that you are not credible. Rejecting facts and definitions and embracing lies will have that effect.

        • goatini

          Vile perjurer Stanek has ZERO credibility. She’s a perjurer, a rapists’ rights apologist, a domestic terrorist, and a supporter of violence against women.

          • P. McCoy

            She is a also a traitor as she shills to establish theocracy and her harassment of pro choicers pegs her as an abetter and advocate of Domestic Terrorism- strip them of their wealth, tax their poltical organizations posing as churches and lock them in Federal Prisons for LIFE in Solitary confinement!

    • HeilMary1

      Don’t you have “baby” tampon funerals you should be attending? And shouldn’t you be worried about Ebola’s spontaneous abortions?

    • Ella Warnock

      Huh, came here Her Own Self instead of sending in the flying monkey brigade.

      • HeilMary1

        Jilted’s priest crush found an underage date at another useful brood mare’s home.

      • goatini

        You KNOW that notorious perjurer Stanek is running scared from the tsunami of women voters who are going to sock it to anti-American misogynist politicians next month, if she’s here herself desperately peddling her lying bullshit.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          From your fingers to God’s inbox.

          • goatini

            That’s it, I’m out of here. Screw this censorship of the cold, hard FACTS about anti-American scum. Thank you, and those who upvoted your post and my deleted FACTS post, for your appreciation of the FACTS.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Forced Birther Cultists can freely call us babykillers and murderers but WE CANNOT FIGHT BACK? What is going on here? Are we under cyber attack?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t know, but it’s getting crazy. I’m going to email the mods.

          • night porter

            I’m gonna blame a technical glitch. Its too random. For example, a factual post of yours will get nuked while a rude one will stay up. Not rational.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, that has to be it.

          • night porter

            Disqus is borked as well. I only get email updates twice a day now, and messages will arrive in a jumbled order – newest first, oldest hours later . I often can’t keep track of all of the various discussions except by clicking on your nyms.

          • anordinaryguy

            Looks like the truth is coming back to bite you. How sweet. How encouraging. How richly deserved!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So it is you with the busy ban finger. What a disgusting creepy crawler you are. Ewwwww.

          • night porter

            Yep. Sure looks like it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So as far as I know and we can check with disqus because I do not know much, you get an automatic delete if you get a certain number of flags.
            AnalApertureGuy has been busy. And may have had some assistance from the flying monkeys – and our own resident tone troller? Perhaps Jill Stank has got a sadz? She left quickly.
            Inquiring minds need and want to know.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have birthed three babies who are grown now and staunch advocates, like their Mother, of reproductive privacy and autonomy for women. I WIN and you lose.

          • anordinaryguy

            Good riddance!

    • goatini

      Go back to your hate speech cesspool, you vicious, vile perjurer, rapists’ rights apologist, domestic terrorist, and supporter of violence against women. If there were any real justice in this country, you’d be doing hard time for a long time.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Women with the disease/disability of drug addiction have been demonized by forced birth cultists. They are jailed, reviled, everything but given access to treatment facilities.

    • Arachne646

      The last thing anyone in our increasingly punishment-loving society wants to do about drug addiction and abuse is to fund or even allow harm-reduction model programs for active addicts, even though they have lots of research proving them cheap, effective, and, what’s more, excellent recruiting strategies for treatment! Whether they reduce overdoses, sexual assaults, harm to newborns or families, or are just the best way to reduce “nuisance crimes” related to drugs in general, harm reduction strategies are too “soft on crime” for our puritan morality. This is as true for the supporters of the present Conservative Party of Canada government (more like an evangelical Tea Party import from Alberta, the Texas of Canada, than representatives of Canadians), as it is for supporters of “tough on crime” politicians in the USA.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        So agree. Harm reduction works. Works for me in my life. We have to imbue the ethic that says what works is always better than what is ‘right.’ Right/wrong is a very poor model to run your life on. Gray exists. So from time to time you have to punt.

      • catseye

        It is more than just the “love of punishment” here. Under civil forfeiture, law enforcement agencies get a percentage of everything confiscated from suspected drug users and their family members to use to buy law-enforcement HUMVEE’s. They don’t want to give up those goodies; you better _believe_ it.

      • Arekushieru

        “(more like an evangelical Tea Party import from Alberta, the Texas of Canada, than representatives of Canadians)”

        Albertan, here. And you will both never see me disagreeing with that statement and see me repeating that statement QUITE often, myself.

    • Stephanie Lastra

      not every pro-lifer is like that though, you can be pro-life and still believe in non-punitive approaches to drug addiction. I have gone through 3 pregnancies and healthy births on suboxone and I was treated like garbage by the hospital staff, having suffered from a horrible drug addiction as a teen and very young adult I am extremely passionate about helping people with addiction.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Research has shown that 80% of those folks who abuse drugs have psychiatric disorders. They are self medicating.

        • fiona64

          Yep. Anything to make the internal pain stop, you know?

          The unfortunate truth is that psychotropics do not help that many people, and Pharma has known this for a long time. (I was just working on a scholarly article I’m writing about 19th C. mental health “treatments” this morning, and included a reference that cited the majority of anti-depressants, for example, are no more effective than placebos and, oddly enough, even less effective than the so-called “moral treatment” employed by the English Quakers at the York Retreat.)

          • refruits

            Yep and those horrible people at SPL seem to think that forced therapy and drugs will make a suicidal rape victim WANT to be pregnant. That thread still bothers me to this day. Such disregard for women, all because of an obsession with zygotes

          • HeilMary1

            See my reply to fiona.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            That was truly creepy. 1984 stuff.

          • catseye

            “1984” meets “The Handmaid’s Tale.” EEEEEEWWWWWW!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Well said. They are nuts.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Do you have a link about the ‘moral treatment?’ As a sometime Quake, interests me. The pills do not work. I have taken some of them.

          • fiona64

            There is a bunch of stuff out there, but this one is particularly thorough. http://www.disabilitymuseum.org/dhm/edu/essay.html?id=19

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you.

          • HeilMary1

            Networking and sharing puzzle pieces with exploited people is the best therapy. It helps you see bigger pictures.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I agree.

          • Stephanie Lastra

            the Quakers had hospitals over a 100 years ago that were more effective, by far, than the force drugging institutions we have today

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Quakes mean to be good people. And they do not suck at it for the most part.

          • fiona64

            Well, holy crap. A broken watch really is right twice a day.

            The rate of “recidivism,” for lack of a better term, for patients who had been through the York Retreat was *zero.*

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I think Stephanie has a good heart. I think she does not know a lot about this subject and she has sloppy boundaries. I do not think she is the typical narcissistic fetusfreak. I could be wrong.

          • HeilMary1

            If you had the opportunity to attend some of the hearings on human radiation experiments, you would have learned that the CIA hired Nazi psychiatrists to replicate their psychotropic drug concoctions, whose purpose was to produce happy camping slaves. My mom bullied for me an appointment with the then Dean of psychiatry at Georgetown U, the late Father Jon O’Brien, who bragged to me about his role in developing psychotropics for Big Pharma. It would be another few months before I would learn about Munchausen by Proxy psychosis from the Dr. Dean Edell show, but I described to him mom’s classic symptoms of that disorder. Her new obsession was to force me to waste my limited funds on psychotropics, not only so I wouldn’t have money for plastic surgery, but also so my artist hands would shake too much from tardive dyskinesia to work in graphics and to apply corrective make-up. I read the fine print side-effects disclaimers on the psychotropic sales brochures that mom deluged me with, and told O’Brien I didn’t want to be an acned zombie on drugs. He screamed at me that I was a zombie who needed drugs and threw me out of his office. I now believe that the Catholic Church’s interest in psychotropics is to muzzle victims of predatory priests and keep mothers in incubating slavery.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have taken some of those drugs. They do not work.

          • fiona64

            You and me both. It turns out that what I *really* had was Hashimoto’s thyroiditis … which often presents as depression. Standard of care nowadays is to do a thyroid panel before prescribing antidepressants. Then, it was throw pills at it until one of them works. When none of them worked on me, I was deemed “chemically resistant.” Of course, I now have permanent side effects from some of those meds (which is also a known factor that is not discussed) … along with the Hashimoto’s disease that was 20 years more advanced than it might otherwise have been. Ye gods.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It amazes me how stupid doctors are. Nurses are much better clinicians. I have an odd form of arthritis that is congenital called Reiter’s Syndrome. I always know more about it than any doctor who treats me. Always.

          • fiona64

            I went into see my endocrinologist for that first appointment loaded for bear; I had read far too many stories of how endos ignore Hashimoto’s patients. Well, my doc was not only good and compassionate; he also has Hashimoto’s. It was one of the first things he told me. “I really do understand what you’re going through, because I’m going through it too,” he said.

            I was relieved, to be honest.

            It’s good that we educate ourselves so that we can be our own best advocates.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Agree absolutely. Education is everything. Nobody has it right all the time.

          • Stephanie Lastra

            agreed! so why did you say earlier its “organic” implying drugs are needed??

          • fiona64

            If you had actually read what I wrote, you would notice that I said it is *sometimes organic.* And that is because it IS sometimes organic.

            Jesus wept. I am beginning to believe that all of the anti-choice are functionally illiterate.

          • Stephanie Lastra

            “Someone doesn’t understand how mental illness is organic in many cases, I see …” is your exact quote, actually. You also insisted that its the same as heart disease…

          • fiona64

            I believe that you are confusing me with another poster with regard to the second statement, since I never said that.

            And yes, mental illness IS organic in many cases. I have already provided one source on the matter (there are many), but I will do so again: http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/mo/g/organic_mental.htm . I apologize for misquoting myself.

            You claim to be a greater expert on mental illness than anyone else here, and yet you seem to be unaware that yes, there are many, many cases in which it is an organic matter.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Surely that would depend on the patient and the mental illness–I would hope it would be determined on a case-by-case basis.

          • Jennifer Starr

            My great is manic-depressive schizophrenic. Very much an organic condition. If she doesn’t get her meds she starts behaving very erratically and has visual and auditory hallucinations–imaginary cats, pink armadillos and the contents of her fridge talk and sing to her. And no, I am not exaggerating.

          • Stephanie Lastra

            sadly the medications CAUSE withdrawal in a person who has been on it and these symptoms occur. The brain tries to make up for the lack of dopamine by creating MORE receptors and actually increases the severity and longevity of the “illness”. I am very sorry for what she is going through but just because the meds suppress some symptoms doesn’t prove anything about the cause. That is like saying my headache is caused by an aspirin imbalance because my symptoms went away after taking some aspirin.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Stephanie, in this you are right on. The meds only work sometimes. They do not know why they work. They do not know if they will work. They all have serious side effects. My psychiatrist said it is like trying to fix a computer with a mallet.

          • HeilMary1

            I read of one schizophrenic curing his hallucinations through sleep disorder treatments. That makes weird sense if people are having waking dreams.

      • refruits

        You seek to treat women like subhuman garbage through forced pregnancy and birth.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I am pro life so naturally I am pro reproductive privacy and autonomy for women. How do you define pro life?

        • Stephanie Lastra

          pro-life= every human being is a person therefore you cannot kill them intentionally

          • night porter

            So you can’t kill your rapist in order to escape, since *intentionally* killing a human being is always wrong?

          • Stephanie Lastra

            self defense is of course okay. I should have said “you cant kill an INNOCENT human being”. if someone broke into my house with my children home, they would be extremely sorry they did so.

          • fiona64

            “you cant kill an INNOCENT human being”

            Really? I think someone does not know the definition of murder, either …

            Let me clue you in: murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought.

            Not one peep about the guilt or innocence of the murder victim in that definition.

          • night porter

            Aw, so if an innocent cognitively disabled person rapes you because they don’t know any better, you can’t defend yourself, because they are not culpable yes?

          • HeilMary1

            Rapists’ spawn break into women’s bodies and threaten them with lethal sepsis, multiple organ shredding, cancer, autoimmune diseases, and a thousand other grisly assaults.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Assisted suicide is legal. Is the person seeking to die guilty?

          • catseye

            If something breaks into my BODY without my consent, it is NOT “innocent”, and it’s GONE, by any means necessary.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Nope. I am in favor of assisted suicide, self defense for example.

          • HeilMary1

            Pro-liars are OK with intentional lethal faith-based neglect, resource looting wars and religious genocides.

  • anordinaryguy

    There is no “reproductive justice” for unborn children.

    • refruits

      All children have been born.

      • anordinaryguy

        No. You and your kind keep saying that, but it’s an attempt to assuage your guilty consciences for advocating the killing of unborn children, or unborn humans, if you prefer.

        The late-term abortions are often a form of prenatal euthanasia.

        • refruits

          No cupcake, abortion is self-defense, as has been repeatedly explained to you, no human has the right to use another human’s body without explicit and ongoing consent.

          • anordinaryguy

            It’s kind of hard to claim “self-defense” without admitting the personhood of the entity against whom the “defensive” force is used. You’ve also accepted the humanity of the unborn human as equal to that of the pregnant woman.

            Lastly, the law can impose greater duties when a special relationship exists, such as the parent-child relationship.

            The late-term abortions are often a form of prenatal euthanasia.

          • refruits

            1) you can defend yourself against a bear

            2) born children are not entitled to their parent’s organs

          • anordinaryguy

            Legal “self-defense” is a defense against some type of legal proceeding against a person, either civil or criminal. You’re now making unborn humans equivalent to bears, huh?

            By qualifying “children” as “born” here, you are implicitly allowing for children to have some status other than ‘born’. What is that status?

          • HeilMary1

            Fetuses have the same status as LETHAL TUMORS. If a “tumor” threatening your looks, health, life, marriage, job and already born kids turned out to be YOUR TWIN that you absorbed in utero, you’d have a man abortion faster than Sarah Palin can white-out “abortions” and retype “miscarriages” on her medical records.

          • anordinaryguy

            Little fascist wannabe:

            So far, we have established that children may be “born” or some other status. Please don’t waste our time with your pathological misandry.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the fascist because you worship the Nazi-collaborating Catholic Church. My German-spelled name is merely a play on a Christian prayer, but panty-sniffer you is too morally stunted to get it.

          • anordinaryguy

            Godwin’s Law, again!

          • Arekushieru

            Seriously, READ UP on what Godwin’s law ACTUALLY means, before making yourself look even MORE ignorant, ass. You see, she is attacking the PERPETRATORS not using the holocaust against anyone. Which is what that ACTUALLY refers to. Making comparisons that diminish the effects of horrible events of the past and present. Oopsies.

          • HeilMary1

            If he read up on Paul VI’s “special relationship” with Ante Pavelic and the Vatican Nazi ratlines, he wouldn’t be a Catholic fetal idolater crying “holocaust” in front of clinics.

          • anordinaryguy

            No, one does not need to “use the holocaust against anyone” to violate Godwin’s Law.

            Read the first paragraph of this article:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

          • Arekushieru

            No, you can use any other event and compare it to another event thereby diminishing the first event to violate Godwin’s law. I didn’t SAY that you ONLY had to use the Holocaust to violate Godwin’s law, now DID I? I specifically STATED that in an earlier reply. But hypocrite you failed to read that, right?

          • anordinaryguy

            You really are as stupid as you appear.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sorry if she’s using words too big for you to understand. Perhaps hooked on phonics would be useful?

          • Ella Warnock

            Nah, hooked on phonics would be too sophisticated, I fear.

          • anordinaryguy

            Perhaps a brain transplant would be useful for you? No such surgery available? Ooops!

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, my reading comprehension is just fine. Yours would seem to be non-existent.

          • anordinaryguy

            I understand just fine. You support the deliberate killing of unborn children for any reason or no reason at all. That’s morally repugnant.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, we support a woman’s right to bodily autonomy. You support denying a woman that right for no reason other than that you are a misogynist. THAT is morally repugnant.

            Again, no children or killing involved. Care to explain, as I have asked SEVERAL times, how abortion is killing when EVEN A DEAD FETUS can be aborted? OBVIOUSLY means that abortion is not about killing, otherwise it would happen ALL THE TIME. ASS.

          • HeilMary1

            What fetuses do to women’s bodies is repugnant, no matter how wanted they are by some women. The damage is so repugnant that your Vatican banned priests’ marriages to “piles of dung” mothers. Two female fetuses triggered lethal face-eating skin cancer in my best friend. She lost her lips, palates, nose, an eye and an ear before dying. You would never tolerate such damage to your body.

          • Ramanusia

            No, actually you don’t. This is why you just deliberately ignore what’s said and just make up crap that you pull out of your rear.

            No one supports the killing any children, except you, since you have no problems with forcing 9 year olds who get pregnant with twins when their faithful catholic step-fathers RAPE them to gestate against their will and even if it kills them because their lives mean nothing to you.

            You and your church that excommunicated that child, her mother and her doctor are who are morally repugnant, you, your church,your nasty priests and the good catholic child rapist who was embraced within the religion that saw nothing wrong in his actions, but in those who sought to save the child he raped.

            Child rapist and murderers like you and your church have no business sitting in judgement of anyone, you lack morals.

          • Ramanusia

            Methinks someone has looked into correcting his dire situation and was informed that his brainlessness was intractable.

          • HeilMary1

            You need a soul and religion transplant.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He needs to get laid.

          • Arekushieru

            Ableism, again?

          • HeilMary1

            Stupid you refuses to get it that YOUR Catholic Church COLLABORATED with the Nazis to PUNISH contraception, abortion, gays, trade unions, feminists, heretics, the disabled, and communists — the same groups your GOP attacks today.

          • Arekushieru

            See, aog? Mary, here, isn’t making a comparison between your movement and Hitler or Nazis. She’s pointing out that the things you support and the things Hitler or Nazis supported seem, with good reason, to be very similar. A COMPARISON involves (as it pertains to this PARTICULAR discussion since it is not limited to) using two terms together so frequently that they almost become interchangeable, such as using the phrases ‘abortion holocaust’, ‘abortion IS a holocaust’ or ‘abortion is like the holocaust’. If I were to use Godwin’s law against you, I would be saying ‘Hitler Pro-Life’, ‘Pro-Lifers are Hitlers’ or ‘Pro-Lifers are like Hitler’. I have engaged in those activities and THAT’s when you could rightfully claim that I am using Godwin’s law. But that is NOT the case, here.

          • Arekushieru

            Ableism, ableism all over the place. Does that mean you’re invoking Godwin’s law? Also, looksism, why am I not surprised?

          • Ramanusia

            You really do project every aspect of your personality, don’t you?

          • fiona64

            You must have been looking in the mirror when you wrote that. Pro-tip: stop popping your zits. It really is possible to get a systemic infection from doing that. Have your mommy pick you up some Clearasil the next time she goes to the store.

          • anordinaryguy

            I invoked Godwin’s Law because “HeilMary1″ is referring to Nazis all over the place. Your attempts at obfuscation fail miserably.

          • Arekushieru

            So now you’re attempting to obfuscate things by claiming that Godwin’s law refers to people who make comments about evil people all over the place, and tell ME that I’m obfuscating things? WOW.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You know what is Godwin’s Law? People who claim that they ‘survived an abortion holocaust’ simply because they were born after 1973.

          • Arekushieru

            Thank you for providing a link that proves my point. It’s a comparison to the actions of Nazis or Hitler, thereby diminishing the latter’s importance so that any discussion will be intentionally ended. Since Mary was talking specifically about Hitler and Nazis with no comparisons, she was not using Godwin’s law.

          • HeilMary1

            Thank you! The antis would lose overnight if Hollywood ever made movies about Paul VI’s documented Nazi collaboration. They would never again quote Humanae Vitae as justification for their womb trafficking.

          • Ramanusia

            Is that where you learned your one argument, or did someone correctly accuse you of going there when you started hopping up and down screeching about Nazis and fascists?

          • Ramanusia

            Yes, you’re quite fond of resorting to Godwin’s law, since you don’t have coherent argument and your feeble attempts are literally destroyed by simple definitions.

          • fiona64

            Way to miss the point. Again.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, there is no such thing as misandry. Also? The fact that she OPPOSES people like you granting rights to men that you would never grant to women does NOT make her a fascist OR a misandrist, anyways. Thanks for playing!

          • HeilMary1

            Thank you!

          • Ramanusia

            Why are you addressing yourself teenyfascistwnnabe?

            Children are born, that’s the definition of the term, all we’ve established that little fascist wannabes don’t know their words.

            No such thing as misandry, and you’ve admitted you’re not much of a man, and all that’s been stated is that she doesn’t like you very much, a condition you’re no doubt quite familiar with.

          • goatini

            YOU are the fascist. From the 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism:

            5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

          • Arekushieru

            Only fascists claim misandry on the part of others who are opposing the misogyny of the fascist movement.

          • HeilMary1

            Denying women the right to self-defense against deadly fetuses is criminal Munchausen by Proxy psychosis. Munchausen by Proxy perps are as relentless as pedophiles, as evidenced by the brazen murderous contempt for other women’s health exhibited by you and Jilted Stanek.

          • Ella Warnock

            “Jilted.” Heh.

          • goatini

            Notorious perjurer Stanek supports rapists’ rights, violence against women, and seditious anti-American hate speech towards female citizens.

          • lady_black

            No. Self defense is just self defense. It only becomes a legal matter when a homicide is involved. Smarty pants. You’re too clever by half.

          • anordinaryguy

            I am more clever and knowledgeable than you. Self-defense can be raised in a number of other criminal cases, including battery. Furthermore, self-defense can apply as justification in a whole other body of law: tort law. Perhaps you’re fixated on homicide because that is what happens to unborn children in abortion–something you advocate.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, abortion is not killing. If a fetus that is dead can be aborted, how is abortion killing? DARN, eh? All them there FACTS getting in your way, huh?

            Also, you proved our point, not refuted it. AW.

          • anordinaryguy

            Abortion is indeed killing. That’s the whole point of it! You may disagree that the fetus or embryo is a person, but abortion most certainly is killing. You can’t get around that.

          • Arekushieru

            Yes, I can. I just proved it wasn’t. Or can’t you READ?

            Fetus is dead. Woman terminates pregnancy upon discovering that the fetus is dead. Still called an abortion. How can you ‘get around’ calling abortion killing, now?

          • anordinaryguy

            We don’t define things by the rare exceptions to them.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually miscarriages aren’t rare at all. And they are referred to as abortions.

          • anordinaryguy

            You can expand the definition to “abortion” so much that it becomes meaningless.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I didn’t expand anything The medical community refers to a miscarriage as a ‘spontaneous abortion’.

          • lady_black

            Jenifer is medically correct. You aren’t.

          • fiona64

            Here’s a clue for you, dumbass: if you were to look at the medical record of a woman who has had a miscarriage, that is NOT the word you would see. You would see reference to “spontaneous abortion.”

          • Arekushieru

            Um, it doesn’t matter how rare it is, the fact that an abortion can still happen when a fetus is DEAD means that abortion is NOT killing. Oops.

            You have reading comprehension failure, DON’T you?

          • anordinaryguy

            You keep saying “oops.” Sorry you are so clumsy. And what happens when the fetus is alive? Are you going to claim that abortion is not killing then, also?

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, I am clumsy in the eyes of someone who thinks that making mistakes that harm people is all fine and dandy.

            If abortion was killing, it would ONLY HAPPEN when something was ALIVE. The fact that it CAN happen when something is NOT alive, means it is NOT killing. GET A FUCKING CLUE.

          • HeilMary1

            ALL abortions are SELF-DEFENSE against a thousand deadly complications.

          • catseye

            Not to mention an invasion of a woman’s body.

          • Max

            Ooops again? Your not on you meds again tonight ? Shhheeezzzz

          • expect_resistance

            Shut the hell up bully!

          • Max

            This is a special needs site and you are all for aborting the the disabled .really? Fucked up !

          • Arekushieru

            Get a clue.

          • Max

            What’s really disturbing here is your all disabled but are all for aborting yourselves fucked up big time ! Think about it ladies

          • Arekushieru

            We’re not all for aborting ourselves? That would be just as ANTI-CHOICE, as YOU. Seriously, you fail at logic and rationality, BIG time.

          • Jennifer Starr

            This from a woman who failed remedial English and couldn’t write her way out of a paper bag.

          • Arekushieru

            Considering that I DO take a medication to control depression from a low-acting thyroid, that comment was VERY ableist AND insulting. Unlike YOU, if you would DARE to go back and read some of my more recent comments, that is, I AVOID using ableist terms. Using ableist terms to attack someone, and ONLY attack the person, for that matter, who uses terms that avoid that precise outcome is the most egregious form of ad hominem attacks available. Apparently, the ONLY line of ‘argument’ seemingly available to you anti-choicers, eh?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Arekushieru is more literate and intelligent than you could ever hope to be.

          • HeilMary1

            So you oppose removing living tape worms and tumors because of their right to life at the expense of their hosts?

          • lady_black

            We define them by what they are. In this case, abortion is the termination of pregnancy prior to viability. By natural or induced means.

          • Ramanusia

            No, you define things by making up nonsense and ignoring the actual meanings of words.

          • goatini

            Oh, yes, we DO. If ONE innocent woman suffers because of anti-American pigs stripping female citizens of their inalienable civil rights, it is ONE too many.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not killing, and no, that’s not the ‘whole point of it’.

          • anordinaryguy

            In the overwhelming majority of cases, it is indeed killing. You can deny that all day long to try to appease your guilty conscience, but the dead fetus or embryo is the goal of abortion, so it is killing.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Don’t have a guilty conscience–nothing to feel guilty about. And no, it’s still not killing.

          • anordinaryguy

            It is killing. That’s an inconvenient little fact for you and your pro-death cronies.

          • Ramanusia

            So is surgery, so are anti-biotics, so is chemotherapy. That’s an inconvenient little fact the true pro-death activists like to forget, you kill women by denying medical care, you love death. You think women SHOULD die rather than receive medical care.

            Why do you keep talking about guilt? Are you projecting your own guilt over the many young children you’ve sentenced to death? All those women like Savita Halappanavar, whose bodies are being unearthed in places like Ireland from where you dumped them?

          • fiona64

            I think that our latest MRAsshole is just pissed that he can’t control all women, everywhere, and make them do his bidding.

            Someone has mommy issues, all right …

          • Arekushieru

            Iirc, aog, also opposes Universal Health Care. By HIS logic, he is killing pregnant women AND, even FURTHER, opposing their ‘right to life’ at the expense of GRANTING a ‘right to life’ to FETUSES,

          • Arekushieru

            I am so happy to see so many people agreeing with me on this point! Even among the ‘regular’ Pro-Choicers I understand that my opinion that abortion does not equal killing is an outlying opinion.

          • HeilMary1

            Would you feel guilty about removing a deadly fetus-in-fetu twin from your body?

          • lady_black

            A dead fetus can be the cause of abortion. Oops.

          • Ramanusia

            In all cases surgery, chemotherapy etc, are all killing, and you can try to pretend that if your logic applied then you too would be guilty of mass murder, since you killed lots of human cell persons to be here today. Are you trying to appease your own guilty conscience that all those dead cell persons were the goal of the cellular mechanisms that gave you digits was killing?

            Or are you just full of fecal matter?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            INCORRECT. Words have meaning. Medical definition of abortion:

            Definition of ABORTION
            1
            : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus:
            a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation—compare miscarriage
            b : induced expulsion of a human fetus
            c : expulsion of a fetus of a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy—see contagious abortion, trichomoniasis b, vibrionic abortion
            2
            : arrest of development of an organ so that it remains imperfect or is absorbed
            3
            : the arrest of a disease in its earliest stage

          • Ramanusia

            So is chemo. That’s the whole point of it! You insist that cells are people, thus anything that kills a human cells is murder, thus you are a mass murderer of billions of cell people, you cannot get around that, it’s your argument, turn yourself in a pay the price for the murders that you committed. Failure to do so means that you don’t believe your own arguments.

          • fiona64

            “Abortion is indeed killing.”

            No, it is not. It terminates the pregnancy. That the embryo cannot survive ex utero is secondary.

            Washing your hands is “killing.” Chemotherapy is “killing.” Harvesting animals or plants for food is “killing.”

          • Arekushieru

            And you put my point so much more succinctly than I ever could, Fiona! :)

          • HeilMary1

            Self-defense against tumors and parasites is also justifiable.

          • lady_black

            No. Someone said abortion was self-defense. They are correct. I was only referencing KILLING in self defense. There isn’t time here to school you on tort law.

          • HeilMary1

            Perhaps, women should come up with tort laws against maternal injuries and deaths caused by fetuses, fetus daddies, clergy and clinic harassers.

          • Arekushieru

            I like that part about fetus daddies. Because, from what I can understand, the reason a woman’s body may identify a fetus as an attacker (which is also the reason why the fetus suppresses a woman’s immune system) is because the placental surface is layered with the DNA of the sperm donor.

          • anordinaryguy

            Thanks for admitting that abortion is killing. As for my other points, I’ll deem the conceded. You’re in no position to “school” anyone here.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, she said no such thing. She was calling abortion self-defense. That’s it, that’s ALL. KILLING in self-defense was a separate issue, entirely.

            Reading comprehension, antis. NOT a privilege.

            You are the only one being schooled, here. TBSVFS.

          • lady_black

            Abortion “might” be killing. It is most likely killing when done in self defense. You have no other points. You were not speaking of assault or other crimes for which self defense is an affirmative defense. An abortion definitely doesn’t fit the definition of assault, or any other crime. I concede nothing to you. You’re an imbecile.

          • Ramanusia

            You’ve pretty much proven with every comment you’ve ever made that you’re not at all clever, that you have no knowledge. Your argument is moronic, and fails when one considers that no law at any point of human civilization has EVER considered a zygote or an embryo to be a person under the law.

            Perhaps you’re fixated on your own cleverness and knowledge because you’re fond of imaginary things, like those unborn senior citizens you keep yammering on about, they’re just as real as your “cleverness” and your “knowledge”.

            No legal statute of homicide refers to cells or embryos. You’re just a liar who can’t string together a coherent argument and who has delusions of an intellect he does not possess.

          • fiona64

            I’m sure it comforts you to think that you’re more clever.

            What you are is delusional.

          • P. McCoy

            Catholicism is based on keeping people delusional . Don’t think lemmings, that’ s what the pope is supposed to do for ya!

          • goatini

            It’s based on keeping people poor, desperate, and delusional.

          • HeilMary1

            Poverty, fasting, suffering and abstinence BY PROXY.

          • goatini

            //I am more clever and knowledgeable than you. //

            Bullshit. You’re an anti-American piece of crap who hates the rights of American citizens.

          • anordinaryguy

            This is really getting to you, isn’t it? Hah! Good. You deserve all the derision heaped upon you for your pro-killing stance.

          • catseye

            Criminal sociopaths ALWAYS think they’re “the smartest guys in the room.”

          • refruits

            Unborn humans are more equivalent to bacteria. Mindless cell or tissue. And they have no right to anyones body without consent.

          • Shan

            “Legal “self-defense” is a defense against some type of legal proceeding against a person, either civil or criminal.”

            Yes. If you want a fertilized egg to legally be a person under the laws of the US, that’s we’re all going to have to deal with.

          • Arekushieru

            Maybe opposed to adopted children? Because you certainly seem to believe that a biological ‘relationship’ between two entities entitles one to the other’s organs, especially since you’re so concerned about the ‘natural’ state of pregnancy. Oops?

          • lady_black

            No. All children have been born.

          • Ramanusia

            No legal authority recognizes a cell or a zygote or even a fetus as a person. If they did, every woman who failed to test positive for pregnancy must have her used tampons and pads tested to ensure she has not committed manslaughter by failing to promote implantation.

            You’re the one making imaginary things equivalent to other things that have no equivalency.

            Childhood begins at birth, there is no “qualification” that is simply the only meaning of the word. All children are born, if one is not a born, one has never been a child.

            Words exist, they have meaning, legal status begins at birth, period. Until you are born you have no status, you do have a name, 9 weeks to birth, you’re a fetus (even if your host calls you “baby” or “peanut” it doesn’t make you a baby or a legume), fertilization to 9 weeks you’re an embryo, before that you’re a sperm and an oocyte.

          • P. McCoy

            They are host body consuming parasites and I would as soon as get rid, destroy, kill you name it with no more guilt than I would have over killing a tapeworm.

          • lady_black

            Born children aren’t entitled to jack shyte from their parents unless the parents voluntarily assume those duties.

          • HeilMary1

            No fetus has the right to maim and murder its hostage host.

          • lady_black

            If I shoot a rabid dog in self-defense, does that transmutate the dog into a “person?”

          • Arekushieru

            “There is no “relationship.” A relationship requires two born, sapient, sentient individuals. (I am allowing here for the relationship a human has with a pet, because I believe it IS a relationship, albeit not with a human.)”

            Exactly! For all intents and purposes, the fetus is a virtual stranger to the woman. Doesn’t mean that a woman won’t grow attached to that stranger in nine months of gestation. Yet certain groups of anti-choicers have to make certain misogynistic ASSumptions about women and biology in order to claim that abortion damages the ‘relationship’ between a fetus and a woman.

          • HeilMary1

            Yeah, how about that “special relationship” between Litter Sister Sosefina Amoa and her “surprise” newborn whom she immediately smothered to death? Church Lady could have quite a church chat about that!

          • Ella Warnock

            For all intents and purposes, the fetus is a virtual stranger to the woman.

            Don’t pregnant women often say they can’t wait to ‘meet’ their kid? If they haven’t ‘met,’ then they don’t have a relationship.

          • anordinaryguy

            There is a parent and a child. The law imposes duties on parents as a default. The parents can use legal process to relinquish those duties, but the duties arise out of the parent-child relationship.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Nope. Newborns can be left at the hospital or a police station. Just left. Nothing to sign. Nobody to tell.

          • lady_black

            There are no legal “duties” to a fetus. A fetus doesn’t eat, doesn’t wear clothing, needs no shelter, needs no medical care. doesn’t use a telephone, no daycare costs, etc. There is no parent yet, and certainly no “child.”

          • refruits

            But but…pregnancy is merely ordinary food and shelter, just like changing diapers and bottle feeding cuz like, you have to breathe and your heart has to pump blood so that you can move. Really. IDENTICAl to pregnancy.

            Suffice to say, I am sick and tired of pregnancy = care giving

            Grrrr

          • fiona64

            And .. and … teenagers eating Doritos! And … and … toddlers who wander into your garage!

          • Ella Warnock

            You know, I lived in Texas for 20-some-odd years. Nary a feral toddler ever wandered into any of my garages.

          • fiona64

            But … but … if it had, see, you would have to take care of it. Because Mathilde Y. says so. /snark

          • Jennifer Starr

            Or if it knocked on your door or latched on to your leg while crossing the street. *snort*. Makes you wonder what kind of mother she was.

          • Ella Warnock

            The frustrated kind that haphazardly ended up a single one.

          • fiona64

            My guess? A crappy one who never ceases to remind her daughter that she *could* have aborted her, but did the “selfless” thing.

          • Ella Warnock

            Nah, I would have just taken it to Mathilde’s house. She’d shit little green kitty cats if anyone dumped a feral toddler on HER property.

          • expect_resistance

            I would love to see that.

          • fiona64

            Of course she would … because nothing must ever inconvenience Mathilde (or any other anti-choicer). She would argue that it was the parent’s responsibility to look after that child if it showed up at her house.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yep, the parent’s responsibility if it showed up at her house; magically somehow MY responsibility if it showed up at mine.

          • expect_resistance

            That always cracks me up when you quote myintx on that one.

          • night porter

            So i wrote this, and it was deleted…why?

            “”But but…pregnancy is merely ordinary food and shelter, just like changing diapers and bottle feeding cuz like, you have to breathe and your heart has to pump blood so that you can move. Really. IDENTICAl to pregnancy.

            Suffice to say, I am sick and tired of pregnancy = care giving””

            Sarcasm, mods. Sarcasm.

          • lady_black

            I don’t know. One of mine was deleted too for no damn reason. I reposted it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            They deleted a post of mine that contained mild sarcasm. Either the mods are overreacting or the filter is screwed up–I don’t know which.

          • night porter
          • expect_resistance

            She is awesome. She’s doing a great job dealing with Calvin Freakinburger. He is such a pompus windbag.

          • night porter

            It is beautiful.

          • expect_resistance

            I’ve been following the thread and Nordog6561 is annoyed. He’s one of the guys that banned me at NR. He’s so smug in banning people I’m enjoying watching him be ticked off that he can’t ban EE.

          • Ramanusia

            A child only exists from birth, since that’s the actual definition of the word and always has been. The law imposes no duty upon a parent that amounts to the violation of that parents autonomy or bodily integrity.

            You speak of children, which are born, no such thing exists in the host parasite relationship or a woman/zygote relationship.

            This is why women are not sentenced to die when their zygote implants in a fallopian tube, I know it bothers you that women are not killed in that manner in the U.S. as they would be in your misogynistic fantasyland, but there is no duty, moral, legal or ethical that demands that a parent sacrifice his/her body to their offspring.

          • fiona64

            No child until birth, sweetie.

          • Arekushieru

            The fact that you even say that with a straight face amuses me. Because you just defended the rationale that not even those born can use a person’s body against their will. Oops?

            Also, you are comparing a compassionate form of death to a painful, traumatic form of delivery. The fetus does not feel pain during an abortion, JUST AS YOU CLAIMED, however it DOES experience suffering and trauma during birth, after all.

          • Ramanusia

            It’s pretty easy to claim self-defense, if one was not a total moron. What do you think the immune system is engaging in, if not “self-defense”? Do you think bacteria, viruses and smoke are “persons”? What utter idiocy.

            No one denies that a human cell is a human cell, only a true moron would insist that a human cell is a ‘person’ with the same rights and privileges of a fully developed and born human being, oh sorry, you think that some persons have extra rights, like the right to rape and cannibalize.

            The law can impose nothing upon anyone that requires them to give up their bodily integrity or autonomy. It’s why you can’t sue your mom for her body parts.

            Denying women access to medical care is often a form of post-pregnancy murder, since there is nothing merciful in how you kill these women.

          • fiona64

            You have no idea how pregnancy works, do you?

          • thedancingbag

            Um, if a rottweiler is attacking me and I defend myself…well, are you saying a dog is a human because I acted in self defense?

        • Shan

          “The late-term abortions are often a form of prenatal euthanasia.”

          Yes, they are. That’s why the procedure begins with the fetus being injected with a drug to stop its heart.

          http://www.drhern.com/en/abortion-services/third-trimester-abortion.html

          • anordinaryguy

            I thought it was just a “clump of cells” until it was born. You lefties are incredibly inconsistent!

          • HeilMary1

            You think women, children and newborns are clumps of cells.

          • Shan

            No. Women don’t have abortions because they know they don’t want to spend the next 9 months gestating and then giving birth to humans. They know it’s not going to be a tapir.

            You (whatever you are) are incredibly (some other insult that involves not knowing any science).

          • Arekushieru

            Fetus does not make clump of cells irrelevant. Oops.

          • Ramanusia

            We’re actually very consistent. Fertilization to 9 weeks is the embryonic period, 9 weeks til birth is the fetal period.

            That’s cute, you claim to have “thought” something? Your Righties aren’t capable of that, as your posts consistently prove. At least you’re consistent! Consistently wrong, consistently dishonest and consistently stupid!

        • HeilMary1

          You’re livid that your sex life is over, so you insist on ruining everyone else’s sex life. Women don’t feel guilty about abortions that prevent bladder and bowel incontinence, cancers, autoimmune diseases, organ failures, strokes, bankruptcy, death, spousal abuse, and the sex trafficking of their born kids by priests.

          • fiona64

            You’re assuming he’s ever *had* a sex life. There is not enough inducement in the world for me to take on that kind of a mercy f*ck.

          • HeilMary1

            Or desperate spinster me! — even I have standards.

          • fiona64

            Of course you do!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Dense as a box of gohmerts and twice as mean. Ewww.

          • Ella Warnock
          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I love that. Ewwwwww.

          • catseye

            Of course, you’re assuming it ever actually HAD a sex life in the first place. Somehow, I doubt it.

        • lady_black

          SO???

        • Arekushieru

          No, it’s an attempt to use scientific terms in the way they were meant to be used. It’s YOUR selfsame avoidance of those terms that tells us that you don’t really think a fetus is a person/human being.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I wish you what you wish me.

        • Ramanusia

          Yes. It’s what the term “child” means, a specific period between BIRTH and adulthood. There is no guilt, no killing of any children, and still no such thing as an “unborn” child. You keep equating cells with people, or as you prefer, unborn sperm and eggs.

          Late term abortions are most often a form of life saving health care, but since you advocate the killing of born children and women who happen to be pregnant against their will, no one really cares what you’re guilty conscience is projecting to hide your pro-death agenda.

        • fiona64

          I’m sorry, sweetie. Were you absent the day that the developmental stages of viviparous vertebrates was taught at school? Let me help you:

          In utero:
          zygote
          blastocyst
          embryo
          fetus

          Ex utero:
          Infant
          child
          adolescent/juvenile
          adult

          All children, of all viviparous vertebrate species everywhere, have been BORN.

    • Shan

      Of course not. Unborn children don’t reproduce.

    • HeilMary1

      Better aborted than abused by priests and monster parents! Keep your perverted nose out of women’s panties, womb trafficker.

      • anordinaryguy

        Just what is your problem?

        • Arekushieru

          She clearly outlined it for you already, and not just once, but several times. I’m sure you’ll eventually get it, though, if you go back and re-read, however!

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      There is no child until I make it.

    • Ramanusia

      None for unicorns either. Reproductive justice is for people who exist, not figments of your hysterical imagination. You’re the kind of nitwits who seek “reproductive justice” for the tumors of the world.

      • HeilMary1

        “It’s a headache, not a tumor!’
        Kindergarten Cop

    • HeilMary1

      Considering the misery and grisly early deaths you, your GOP and your priests intend to inflict on fetuses once they’re born, abortion definitely is merciful justice.

    • fiona64

      There is no “reproductive justice” for manticores, either. Won’t someone think of *all* the fictional beings?

    • HeilMary1

      There is no reproductive justice for women maimed and murdered by forced pregnancies by you pedophile womb traffickers.

  • Brianna Gamma

    “But I have a problem with the idea that certain fetuses are more available for abortion because of their apparently disabled futures.” Then you are either not disabled, or you are very privileged and have not suffered much for your disability.

    Rare is the person with a serious disability who would wish it on another person. Should they believe abortion is murder, they will strive for a cure or prevention. Should they believe abortion is NOT murder, they will strive for better prenatal testing.

    Disability isn’t just something like deafness or Aspberger’s. Disability includes mental illness, where your brain is not your own. Degenerative diseases where your body gives out on you and you face unending pain. Down’s syndrome, where you are either too mentally disabled to understand why you are infertile, treated like a child into your 40s, have an early death and can never reach your dreams– or you AREN’T and your life is a living hell.

    I do agree, though, that we need to focus more on the impact of lack of abortion access on disabled women, since right now we’re talking about potentially disabled fetuses and not the definitely disabled women carrying them. People feel a lot more sympathy for a mentally ill woman who has to go off her meds to carry a child, or a paralyzed woman facing a difficult and dangerous pregnancy, than a healthy, wealthy white woman with a disabled fetus, even if that woman doesn’t see abortion as murder and is acting only to spare her child from untold suffering.

    • HeilMary1

      Amen!

    • Stephanie Lastra

      are you kidding me?? First of all, love you how you are bought and sold on the psychiatric drivel about it being a brain disease. Second of all, how about you read notdeadyet.org for starters, your ableism is showing….

      • fiona64

        Someone doesn’t understand how mental illness is organic in many cases, I see …

        • Stephanie Lastra

          I know way more about “mental illness” than you do, trust me. Read Mad in America, its a good start.

          • fiona64

            Don’t be so sure of yourself, sweetie. I’ve been researching this for *decades.* In fact, I was digging into my own resource list over the weekend for an article I’m writing on the matter.

            You don’t know the first thing about me or my background, so it is fallacious and ridiculous to claim that you know way more about mental illness than I do. You just make me laugh.

          • Max

            Your sickening .no I’ll call it “intellectual mastubation ” .this women has experience over anything and everything you could possibly come up with. Talk about arrogance . You think you know more about mental illness than the one who actually HAS mental illness? Unless of course it’s you that has mental illness.which is entirely possible given that post.sheeeze! Experience overrides theory SWEETIE

          • fiona64

            Thanks for continuing to prove my hypothesis that the anti-choice are functionally illiterate, Christine …

            PS: “Your sickening” what, Christine? Please complete the sentence.

          • Max

            Is that all you have ? Really? Yes your sickening .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Your sickening what?

          • Max

            More like who ,not what .hello Jennifer Starr

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t know what punctuation has ever done to make you abuse it so often.

          • fiona64

            “Your sickening” what, Christine? Finish the sentence.

            And you wonder why I think you appear to be functionally illiterate …

          • lady_black

            Yes. I think I know more about mental illness than the person who’s mentally ill. That type of “experience” doesn’t equal knowledge about a subject. That equals knowledge about yourself. ONLY.

          • Max

            You don’t have a clue .

          • Jennifer Starr

            She has more of a clue than you do.

          • Max

            In case you missed the point Stephanie made you may want to reread it .its loaded with experience of her own battle with mental illness and her opinion on the bigotry that goes with it. Arrogance at its finest lady.

          • lady_black

            As a person with family members who are mentally ill, yes I am aware of the bigotry. I am not a bigot, and Shephanie is NOT helping her own case by insisting that mental illness isn’t “a real illness” like diabetes. In fact, IT IS a real, physical disease that deserves real, physical treatment.

          • Max

            You defeat your own argument

          • lady_black

            NO, I do NOT.

          • Stephanie Lastra

            I do have “mental illness”, although I am now free from psychiatric oppression

        • Salvador_Dalai_Llama

          What do you mean by “mental illness is organic?”

          • Jennifer Starr

            That in many cases it is a physical illness, like diabetes or heart disease.

          • Max

            No comparison

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, yes there is.

          • Max

            Prove it

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s already been proven. I’m sorry that you’re unable to read.

          • Max

            Uh ha

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Eeezy peezey.
            You give a diabetic insulin, it may help control that person’s diabetes. You give a scizophrenic an antipsychotic, it may help to control that person’s mental illness.
            I much prefer brain disorder to mental illness but then I am biased.

          • expect_resistance

            Wrong!

          • night porter
          • expect_resistance

            Thanks for the link. I have limited time to post today at work. Just got slammed with getting several reports done. I actually have to work today :(

          • fiona64

            It is pretty straightforward: in many cases, mental illness is organic. Just like I said.

            Are you unaware that the term organic, when used in medical situations, means based in biology? Well, now you have learned something.

            For more information, you can visit here: http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/mo/g/organic_mental.htm

      • lady_black

        Um, YEAH mental illness is physical disease of the brain. That’s why mental illness responds to chemical mediation. You wouldn’t tell someone to “snap out of” diabetes. Why on earth would you tell someone to snap out of depression? Stop lying. You are spectacularly unhelpful.

      • Brianna Gamma

        I am mentally ill. My partner is severely mentally ill. We are advocates for the rights of people with disabilities (basically volunteer lobbyists– not protestors or armchair advocates, but people who show up in courthouses and talk to representatives and get shit done). THEIR OWN rights. Not the rights of their parents and families to euthanize them, control them, or own them. But their rights to live and work as normally as they are able, independently as they are able, with support from government agencies as needed to help them. Most importantly, we advocate for things like protection from bullshit laws that allow parents to control their adult children, that sterilize people against their will, that lock up children in schools, and that limit their access to healthcare.

        As such I am on good terms with and friendly with hundreds of people, ranging from minimally disabled but functional like myself or people missing a limb, to people who cannot move anything but their eyes and people who are permanently at the level of a kindergartner. They are wonderful, vibrant people. They also suffer a great deal. If I could, tomorrow, make them healthy and “normal” I would in a heartbeat. And they would do the same for me.

        Disability is HARD. And the more severe the disability, the harder it is. Pretending it would all be peaches and cream if we were treated as equals is bullshit when it takes three hours and two helpers to get dressed in the morning, or when you can’t read and will never learn. Now, if you believe abortion is murder, YOU WILL NOT ADVOCATE FOR THE ABORTION OF FETAL ABNORMALITIES. Of course you won’t. But you will advocate for cures, for prenatal vitamins, for research, for management techniques all with the goal of letting people with serious disabilities be “normal” as much as possible.

        On the other hand, if you believe a fetus is NOT a person, and abortion is NOT euthanasia, you will advocate for prevention up to and including aborting before a child is created.

        To argue otherwise is to ignore the thousands of voices of people with disabilities who disagree with you. Like ignoring the voices of people with chronic illness who want the right to decide, without any input from their families, to be euthanized. In other words, to argue that there is only one way to be disabled, only one attitude people with disabilities can take on issues like abortion and euthanasia, is completely ableist. Try talking to people with disabilities outside of those specific anti-something advocacy groups. You might learn that disabled is not a personality trait and the disabled are not a monolithic block.

        • night porter

          Well said. I am disgusted with how pro liars exploit the disabled and then cut social programs that actually help them.

          • Max

            Your kidding right ? Your disgusted with pro lifers exploiting the disabled? Who are the people who want to abort the pre born disabled??? What a joke you and this article and all the
            pro death people here. Your whole argument has crumbled .

          • night porter

            Yeah, you guys don’t care about the disabled, which is why you vote for GOP pro-life candidates who immediately cancel social programs that *help* the disabled

            You are also the kind of people who would force a disabled woman to give birth against her will, you are that depraved, and the kind of people who would force a woman to give birth even if it would permanently paralyze her.

            Right?

          • Jennifer Starr

            The first thing that ‘pro-life’ conservatives do when they get into office? Cut programs that help children and the disabled.

          • Arekushieru

            ‘Your kidding right’, a truer statement never spoken! The right is always kidding around and playing games with women’s lives. Also as Fiona likes to say, “Please finish this sentence; your disgusted what?”

            Who are the people who want those who are disabled to suffer needlessly while those who are able-bodied can choose how much suffering they can and will endure, whether born OR NOT? Not US, that is for sure.

            Who are the people who ALWAYS spectacularly miss the point of an article? NOT us.

            Your whole argument is crumbling, ‘dearie’, but you knew that’s what your whole self-projecting attempt was about, in the first place, right?

        • Stephanie Lastra

          I also am diagnosed with mental illness and was hospitalized about 40 times from ages 14-21. I was forcibly medicated and I commend your efforts to fight against laws that take away our civil rights. I never said the disabled community is a monolithic group with one opinion. I am pointing out that saying “of course you would abort a baby with Down Syndrome, its the kind thing to do for the baby because their life isn’t a normal one” has profound impacts on individuals with DS (and any other disability this applies to). You cant say their life isn’t worth living and at the same time value them as everyone else who is “typical”. Seeking out a destroying people prenatally specifically due to a disability is very scary! Doctors heavily pressure women into abortions when a positive diagnosis is found as well (I was horrified by how pressured I was at the OB to find out if my baby had DS, the clear implication was that its the worst thing ever). Look at the situation in New Zealand, they have a public policy of aborting DS babies! Horrible.

          • HeilMary1

            Wish my disfiguring mom aborted me instead, My worst insults come from anti-choicers.

      • catseye

        That website was created by forced-birthers to exploit people with disabilities.

      • Arekushieru

        You might also wanna read this (and anyone else who may be interested. Although I would like to note that this is the first time I have agreed with this particular journalist ONE HUNDRED PERCENT): http://www.edmontonjournal.com/health/Coyne+assisted+suicide+right/10302117/story.html

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Excellent article. I also agree.

  • Stephanie Lastra

    Well I am in 100% disagreement about abortion, I think every “fetus” is equally deserving of life whereas you believe they are all equally open to be killed. However, finally SOMEONE on the abortion side sees how devastating this type of rhetoric is to the disabled community. Finally, someone is pointing out how this horrible promotion of eugenic abortion DOES affecting people who HAVE those conditions! Guess what, their life matters and basically telling them that it would be better off if they had never been born doesn’t help them gain equality in this world.

    • refruits

      Life, at the expense of another, is a gift, not an entitlement.

      • Arekushieru

        And a gift is something that must be wanted not only by the receiver but also by the bearer. Which is why I find it sickening that Christian fundies would even dare to claim that, just because God designated women as the uterus-holders, birthing a child is likened to the ‘gift of life’. Makes me wanna puke.

        How much you wanna bet, though, that both Ms. Lastra and Mr. ‘Guy’ would misunderstand the concept of gift just as much as the latter seems to misunderstand the concepts of abortion, killing, Godwin’s law, child, misandry, misogyny, etc…?

    • HeilMary1

      My anti-abortion family treated me with complete contempt, even though they knew my hateful mom disfigured me as her abstinence excuse. Wish she aborted me instead.

    • lady_black

      Horseshit, Stephanie.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I am disabled. What a pile of hot and steaming BS.

      • expect_resistance

        Hi Plum I hope you don’t mind that I sugessted your site as “home base” if RH regulars leave this site for getting their comments deleted. Several of us are ticked off that are comments here are getting deleted. I’ve been posting here and never had a comment deleted until today.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I would love it. I am pretty angry about the way the Regulars and I am being treated. Nice to know I am not alone. I actually went to another board where I have pals to complain. My feelings are hurt. I feel really insulted.

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks. I would be sad if I didn’t talk to you again. I mean it. I really like talking to you. Big hug!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I feel the same way. I would miss our conversations. I would miss the group.
            Do you think we are under attack by malicious outsiders? Who would care about our dinky little board full of eccentric women enough to do that?

          • Max

            Lol

          • expect_resistance

            I agree with night porters (refruits) theory about an automated mod system.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            But why would it change on us all of a sudden?

    • Arekushieru

      SOMEone missed the point of the article. (Although, I would have to say that even some of the Pro-Choicers here seemed to have missed the intent of this article, namely that I don’t think the author was making a statement one way or the other in regards to the terribleness or lack thereof of any one disability, rather than that the language we use appears to concede that we believe a fetus with abnormalities should be aborted regardless of the woman’s wishes, at least more often than we seem to believe that a fetus without diagnosed abnormalities should be.) The point YOU missed, however, was that rights for those who are disabled must be applied equally, across the board, or they are not rights. If a fetus is diagnosed with abnormalities and you advocate that having an abortion for such a reason is discrimination against those who are disabled, then you must agree that a pregnant woman who is disabled cannot abort a fetus diagnosed with abnormalities for such a reason, either. But then, that discriminates against the pregnant woman who is disabled. Therefore, you are not advocating for rights of the disabled, but merely your ability to hold up fetuses and children, with disabilities, who were not aborted as mere inspiration porn. That is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of treating those with and without disabilities equally.

      Btw, the term IS fetus, therefore your quotes around the word simply point to your and Mr, ‘Guy”s inability comprehend even MORE simple concepts.

      • lady_black

        I support the right of women (disabled or not) to abort a pregnancy, for any reason, including not passing on a disability, if abortion is the right choice for them. If I were to say that disabled fetuses ought to be aborted against the mother’s wishes, that is an inherently ANTI-CHOICE statement.

        • Arekushieru

          Although I’m not saying that the author of this article doesn’t believe that wholeheartedly, as well, I DO believe that she is concerned that the way we use some of the language surrounding this very issue can be interpreted that way. :)

    • fiona64

      Looks like you missed the point of the article … although you are doing a fabulous job of demonstrating how you are part of the problem. It’s about access to a full range of services for WOMEN with disabilities. You know, women? The people you’re erasing from the discussion in your hurry to talk about the embryo?

  • Stephanie Lastra

    and how about linking to some groups that can help educate people on this? one great site is notdeadyet.org but there are many others. No, its not a “religious” site so don’t delete it immediately.

  • expect_resistance

    What’s up with all the deleted comments?

    • goatini

      That’s it, I’m out of here. Screw this censorship of the cold, hard FACTS about anti-American scum. Thank you, and those who upvoted my deleted FACTS post, for your appreciation of the FACTS.

      • fiona64

        I am extremely annoyed that factual posts are being deleted while anti-choice crap stays. We had this happen back in the days of AOL when a new moderator came in who was personally anti-choice and would delete any and all posts that did not conform to her ideals. One of the rules was that people could not advertise on the debate boards and there was a doula (IMO, a glorified labor coach) who constantly advertised. Her posts remained because they were “pro-life.” To add to the frustration, none of the pro-choice could then apply to be a moderator for the board because once you’d had three posts deleted you were deemed ineligible. Ugh.

        • night porter

          Meh, my perfectly valid posts are *still* being deleted and no reply on FB.

          This is really weird, and is changing the nature of RHRC, not for the better.

          • expect_resistance

            I agree. Is there a new mod? It’s really strange to the posts from the regulars getting deleted. If you find anything out can you post it here?

            I’ve always thought if RHRC as home base for us but if we are getting deleted I think we should go to Plum’s site for home base.

          • night porter

            Contact and complain. We all need to. Many of the posters here have been supporting RHRC for YEARS, years longer than I have. This is not a good way to treat the community.

          • expect_resistance

            Will do. I’ve been posting here for 6 years.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I complained on the facebook page. I have had no response.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            More than welcome at my site. Hate this place the way it is now.

          • HeilMary1

            Maybe Discus employees are censoring? — I ran into that at Raw Story.

          • expect_resistance

            I haven’t posted at Raw Story since the changed the site. It won’t load on my computer and looks like crap on my phone.

          • night porter

            Its horrible on my phone. Looks like crap.

          • expect_resistance

            And coming from someone who is tech savvy, thank you.

          • night porter
          • expect_resistance

            I’m always curious about the nyms you choose. Why “night porter?” I still like purrtriarchy. You know how I love cats.

          • night porter

            look it up on IMDB “night porter”

          • HeilMary1

            “purrtriarchy” — LOL!

      • expect_resistance

        the antis can’t handle the truth. I think they are flagging us for no reason.

        Please don’t leave. I would miss you.

        • Max

          Lol! really now? .Are you serious ? every post I made in the past was truth that your ilk didn’t like and you did the same . Oh it’s soooooo different now . Double standards at its finest ! As far as this article goes ? Trash!

          • expect_resistance

            No not a double standard. You don’t post the truth or anything factual. Go ahead and flag me.

          • Max

            Already did joker!

          • Max

            Your whole anti life philosophy is crumbling in this article

          • expect_resistance

            What the hell are you talking about? You sound delusional.

          • Max

            No I’m not delusional dear . The meds you ALL are on are creating your own world where good is bad and bad is good .iIts very sad indeed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I suspect you might be seeing the pink elephants again.

          • Max

            Show me your friends and I’ll tell you what you are

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well unlike you, my friends aren’t found in multiple bottles of wine. Incidentally, how much do you put away per night?

          • Max

            The same amount as the pills you take

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t take any pills. You, on the other hand, are clearly on a bender that would put ‘The Lost Weekend’ to shame.

          • Max

            I dont drink and you dont take pills. That refutes your lost weekend theory.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Right… and the times when you’ve ended conversations on this board by claiming to have had ‘too much wine’?

          • Max

            Prove it

          • Jennifer Starr

            And why should I need to prove something that’s common knowledge?

          • Max

            Oh now so now it’s different .so much for real tangible evidence huh ? Your a joke ! Night night sweetheart . You have nothing but hateful angry trolling

          • Jennifer Starr

            Angry? Nah, it’s hilarious. Especially when your spelling and grammar get progressively worse with each drink.

          • lady_black

            Eventually, she’ll pass out.

          • Arekushieru

            No, you’re the angry, hateful troll, ‘sweetheart’.

          • lady_black

            Yeah you drink. I can tell when I’m conversing with someone who’s all gassed up, because I’m 100% sober, and have more experience with drunks than I care to admit. Out the plug back in the jug and sleep it off, honey.

          • Ella Warnock

            You know, I really wonder about pills, too. She’s always the first one to bring up booze and drugs. I suspect problems with both.

          • Max

            I have more experience with disabled people on meds so your out of your league .now let’s get to the point how about your ilk aborting the disabled .

          • Arekushieru

            So, how about getting to the ACTUAL point being discussed, here? That being YOUR ilk denying woman who are disabled the right to choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy where the fetus has been diagnosed with abnormalities? Hm, serious reading comprehension issues, you people have, eh?

          • lady_black

            I don’t believe you have more experience with medication administration than I do. Disabled or not. I’m not out of my league. You don’t know who you’re talking to. And I support the right of any woman, disabled or not, having the right to an abortion for any reason, including for a fetus that is disabled. Now notice, this is about the rights of WOMEN. Fetuses, again, disabled or not, DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS. Women have rights. If I said I was for FORCING women to abort disabled fetuses whether she wanted it or not, I would be every bit as anti-choice as you are. At the time most abortions are done, there isn’t yet any evidence of disability. By the time they are diagnosed, she’ll be further along in pregnancy. She deserves honest, medically-based information about the disability and it’s implications. She may well still wish to continue the pregnancy. On the other hand, she may feel that she and her family are NOT equipped to deal with a disabled child. And that’s OK. She may have other children, and the family will not survive financially on just one income. It’s a significant barrier knowing you will need to resign your job to care for a disabled child full-time. It will harm her financially now, and in the future by reducing her Social Security benefits because of the time she spent not working. Last but not least is the fact that the disabled kid will likely outlive her, and unless she’s wealthy enough to set aside a trust fund for the care of the disabled kid after the parents are deceased, she may experience constant anxiety about what will become of the child when the parents die. She or her husband could also become disabled and no longer be able to care for a disabled kid. These are ALL valid concerns that need to be addressed when faced with a choice like that. It’s not responsible to just go ahead and birth a disabled child and “hope for the best.”

          • Max

            One persons right to a preferred lifestyle is not greater than another persons right to life. Your argument for killing an unborn child is valid only if they apply to killing born people who are handicapped .aborting children on the basis of their handicaps jeopardizes the rights of born people who are handicapped .to justify abortion on the grounds that the baby is or might be disabled is to express a bigotry against people with disabilities.killing the innocent is NEVER justified because it relieves others of a burden

          • fiona64

            Stop drunk-posting, Christine.

          • Max

            Awww Fiona .is that all your little mind can come up with ? It proves the point when there’s empty space between your ears ,this is how you fill it

          • fiona64

            Put down the bottle, Christine.

          • lady_black

            There IS no “right to life.” There is no right to be gestated.

          • Max

            That’s only your opinion which does not negate the truth.

          • lady_black

            And what IS “the truth” Mongo? That I somehow “owe you” something? That your mother owed it to you to gestate you? Because, she didn’t owe you DIDDLY! You ought to get down on your knees and beg forgiveness from your mother. She gave you a precious gift. You would make a slave of her. Shame on you.

          • fiona64

            We still know it’s you, Christine …

          • HeilMary1

            ALL abortions are medical SELF-DEFENSE.

          • expect_resistance

            My mental illness has no delusions. It’s interesting how you make fun of my mental illness and then flag my comments. You are acting like a bully.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s because your posts are largely pointless, boring, badly written and do violate TOS. And while there are anti-choicers who come on here and actually engage in entertaining debate, you don’t happen to be one of them.

          • Ella Warnock

            Man, it’s always easy to tell when that third bottle of wine gets going, isn’t it?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I flag for one reason and one reason only – calling ‘murder.’ I NEVER FLAGGED YOU. I do not even recognize your screen name. You are a nonentity here and given your tude, you will stay a nonentity.

          • fiona64

            It’s the anti-choice nutter Christine Smith.

          • fiona64

            You have never posted anything factual, Christine. You’re delusional.

      • night porter

        goatini, at least contact RHRC and complain. The more of us who do it the better. It could just be that no one is actually modding and the spam filter is deleting posts. Who knows, but something is up. I contacted them on FB and didn’t get a response – usually I do, from Brady, for example, and he has always been super nice.

        If, in the meantime, you still want to debate anti-choicers with us, come to Secular Pro Life, as at least *they* don’t censor – which is kind of funny, really, we get censored here, but not at a misogynist anti-choice site!

        • lady_black

          They deleted a factual comment from me about mental illness being organic. On the off chance it was a mistake, I have re-posted it. If they delete it again, they can kiss my ass goodbye.

          • night porter

            Considering the fact that no one has replied to me on FB – and they usually do – plus the deletion of random posts – I can only conclude that as posts are flagged, the spamfilter comes along and deletes them. So, you post something factual, an anti-choicer flags it, the spamfilter nukes it.

            The other reason that I suspect that it is the filter is because I have had posts with ZERO bad werds immediately go into pending – flagged as spam – for no good reason. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume, for now, that the system is on the fritz.

          • expect_resistance

            That sounds like that’s what’s happening.

          • night porter

            I think so.

      • Ella Warnock

        I did see your most recent two posts about Stanek and her flying monkeys before they disappeared. Nothing there that wasn’t true.

      • night porter

        Come back goatini. The site had no moderator and the script was deleting all flagged comments – and ordinaryguy was flagging our factual comments.

        • catseye

          Facts are the sworn enemy of the forced-birth crowd.

          • night porter

            Amen to that.

  • http://www.twitter.com/orbitalflyby flyby

    I agree with your point, but as a data analyst in the field I have to point out that Down’s syndrome certainly can be fatal. A significant proportion of affected fetuses spontaneously abort, and stillbirth/late fetal death is not at all uncommon. Cardiac abnormalities of varying severity (atrioventricular septal defects especially) are expected and may in themselves be fatal or life-limiting. Every case needs to be treated individually, and parents need to have as much information as possible about their individual baby’s condition to allow them to make the appropriate decision for them.

  • lady_black

    I had a factual comment removed by moderators for no damn reason, so here goes. AGAIN. Mental illness is organic. That’s why it responds to chemical mediation. You wouldn’t tell someone to “snap out of” their diabetes, so why on earth would you suggest that they “snap out” of their depression? This comment doesn’t violate TOS. I DARE you to remove it.

    • expect_resistance

      Yes you are factually correct and your comment should not be deleted.

      I understand dealing mental illness. I’ve been dealing with several forms of mental illness and even though I don’t like taking medication I have to because it helps me function and have a more ” normal” life. I hate it when people say just snap out of it because I can’t and they don’t understand.

    • Stephanie Lastra

      definitely not a fact. I would never tell someone to snap out of depression, but I don’t believe isn’t anything like diabetes (a real disease, that is actually physically testable). The symptoms can be 100% real and disabling (I know, I was severely suicidal for 8 unrelenting years) but there is no reason to believe its caused by a chemical imbalance.

      • night porter

        Would you recommend that a suicidal rape victim be tied down and force fed for 9 months so that she will give birth and not “intentionally kill” the rspists spawn within her by starving herself to death?

        • Stephanie Lastra

          this is an absurd question, if you want to ask me how I would respond to a woman who is pregnant as a result of rape then ask in a way that isn’t so intentionally inflammatory please.

      • fiona64

        The problem is that in some cases it IS organic. And there is no way to know, because there is no test for it. The secondary problem is that physicians are given bonuses for doing 15-minute med checks rather than full-hour sessions because it “increases access.”

        Look. I get that your experience is primary as a patient. Mine is primary as a (misdiagnosed) patient *and* someone in the health care profession.

      • lady_black

        If you mean we can’t chemically test a brain, you’re right. But mental illness IS a “real disease” and it’s physical. Unless your brain is not part of your body.

        • HeilMary1

          “Mental illness” can be organic from natural imbalances and brain injuries, and “non-organic” from abusive treatment and hardships. Drugs won’t work on the latter if the sufferers are still being abused.

          • lady_black

            Bi-polar disorder runs in my family, and I’m absolutely certain it has a genetic component. My paternal grandmother had it and was actually institutionalized. My father has it. So does my sister. I’ve never experienced a manic episode, but went through a period of months where it took everything I had to get out of bed and put my clothes on. I couldn’t concentrate, I couldn’t make a decision. I’m pretty sure that was clinical depression, and fortunately it ended as suddenly as it began and never returned. My daughter is also bi-polar.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bipolar here with bipolar daughter.

      • Unicorn Farm

        Wow.
        Not very bright, are you? Depression is known to be caused by chemical imbalances. Depression can have other causes for sure, but a known cause is chemical imbalance in the brain.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I think it is hysterically funny how fast Jill Stanek RAN FROM US. Even crippled by stupid moderation and wild forced birther post banning, we whipped her lying dupa.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    MODS – STOP REMOVING JILL STANEK’S POSTS.
    They have no dirty words and no personal insults. You are hiding how stupid and devious she is from the world. NOBODY IS PAYING YOU TO DO THAT.
    ARE THE MODS HERE ACTUALLY PROCHOICE?

    • Jennifer Starr

      I second that. You don’t even get to have a discussion or debate with these people when their posts keep disappearing–it’s ridiculous.

    • expect_resistance

      I agree!

    • night porter

      “”Apologies for these recent deletions – about 300 comments that had
      been flagged were all selected and accidentally deleted in Disqus by
      human error.

      By way of partial explanation, though not excuse,
      we have been without a dedicated community manager for a couple months
      and I have been trying to keep up while handling all my other
      responsibilities. Our new social media and community manager just
      started today and she will be able to give comment moderation the
      attention it deserves.

      Again, sorry for the mistake and loss of time it caused and thank so much for your dedication to the RHRC community. “”

      ————-

      Please show to goatini and anyone else.

      • expect_resistance

        Thanks for posting this.

      • fiona64

        Indeed. So, now we know for sure that the anti-choice whackos are flagging everything that shares factual information .. to the surprise of no one, of course. They learned it from their Dear Leader, Calvin Freakburger.

        • night porter

          Exactly. I messaged RHRC on FB and told them what the anti-choicers were up to with the flagging.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Good. I went on FB and complained too. Twice.

        • expect_resistance

          The anti-choicer/forced-birthers like Calvin can’t deal with the truth or facts.

          • fiona64

            I begin to feel, after a while, like COL Jessup in “A Few Good Men.”

            “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!” (h/t to Aaron Sorkin for writing such a brilliant courtroom scene)

          • expect_resistance

            After I typed that I was thinking that too. BTW I do a great impression of that scene.

          • fiona64

            Believe it or not, I saw a stage production in which the actor playing Jessup was even better than Nicholson. This guy was just scary.

          • expect_resistance

            When I think of Nicholson I think about the roles he’s portrayed someone with mental illness. In “As Good As it Gets” he has OCD. I have OCD. I’m not a jerk like he is in the movie but emphasized with him dealing with OCD. Anyway, mental illness sucks and can be as dibilitating as a physical illness or disability. I know you get it but just had to rant a little.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I think that conclusion is inescapable. And they are flagging folks they do not like who say something they do not like. Their darling precious feelings get hurt.

          • fiona64

            I only flag for trolling or flagrant violations of TOS. These idiots flag when their heads hurt from cognitive dissonance.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yep. They are vicious authoritarians = ignorant, hostile and conformist.

          • expect_resistance

            See – http://liveactionnews.org/nun-too-helpful-why-giving-money-to-planned-parenthood-doesnt-protect-women/#comment-1645638205

            He does not like us and does not like he can’t control us here. He is such a pompous windbag.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Agree. Good description. Basically, it is like all forced birth cultists. If it cannot get its way be honest means, it will use any means available.

        • expect_resistance
          • night porter

            Haha. Yet everything EE said is true.

          • expect_resistance

            Yep. EE is kicking butt.

          • fiona64

            Yep … and she’ll be banned any moment now by Diaper-baby Calvin.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m surprised she hasn’t been banned yet because as we know Calvin has to have total control over the situation. I bet you he’s fun to hang out with (not.)

          • fiona64

            Oh sure … because uptight little man-children are just a stone gas to be around. ;-)

          • expect_resistance

            Calvin sounds a little crabby with the RHRC folks at SPL. I don’t know how much longer I can post there it’s sort of creepy.

          • fiona64

            BWAHAHAHAH! I love how Freakburger cites his own blog as “proof” that abstinence education works. He’s a lunatic.

          • expect_resistance

            That is funny.

          • fiona64

            I imagine him as red-faced and spittle-spewing as he typed that. Calvin is clearly not too tightly wrapped.

          • expect_resistance

            I know. I would have loved to see him type that out. It had to take a while to collect the quotes or maybe he follows this site more often.

          • fiona64

            I firmly believe he lurks over here. I also believe it’s a good thing for Freakburger that a mouse can be operated with only one hand. ::ahem::

          • expect_resistance

            OMG you crack me up.

          • night porter

            SPL does not censor or ban us “trolls” but that is probably because, without us, the site would get very little traffic.

          • Ella Warnock

            Calvin is, I’m sorry, just absolutely hilarious. He’s the ultimate caricature of a pro-liar.

          • fiona64

            Except that he doesn’t realize he’s made a caricature of himself, poor creature.

          • night porter

            Starseed is profoundly dumb. And Paul is a fuckwit. At least Elizabeth seems somewhat intellectualy honest – fucking Valerie Finnegan is back at LJF again and the stupid bint is lying like a sidewalk.

          • Ella Warnock

            True that.

  • Anne Penniston Grunsted

    Thank you for writing this. I am pro-choice. I am also mother to a son with Down syndrome. Prenatally, I knew his risk of Ds was over 90% and I very much wanted him. There are many layers to this issue that concern me, but none more so than the facts that the medical community often provides an irresponsibly dire prediction of life with Down syndrome to mothers with a prenatal diagnosis and the social movements you discuss presume that aborting a child with Ds is a no brainer. They often cite the high termination rate where prenatal diagnoses are present. But the reality is, it’s a minority of expectant mothers who bother to get the diagnosis – genetic testing involves risks to the fetus and so mothers who know they will choose to keep their baby even with a disability diagnosis don’t bother getting tested. That’s as much of a choice as electing to terminate.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I had two pregnancies at age 43 and 45. I had a one in four chance of having a fetus with defects/disabilities. There was no question in my mind that I would abort of I got that diagnosis.

      I had a child with my disability anyway. Had there been a test for my disability I would not have had the test or aborted. Life is mysterious and then you die.

  • expect_resistance

    goatini our deleted posts were a mistake. Please see night posters thread. It was an auto delete glitch or something like that. Sorry I’m not a tech person and can’t explain it better.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Smacked them right in the money with the FACTS. Way to go!
    Beat them bloody words. Do do the woodoo that you do so well!
    THEIR EXCUSES ARE BS.

  • night porter

    Secular Pro Life blogs is calling out RHRC for it’s ‘ableism’

    http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/10/justifications-for-abortion-are.html