Pregnant Texans Are Being Charged With Crimes That Don’t Exist


The West Texas media loves to show her mugshot—the overhead fluorescent lighting, the height hatch marks on the cinderblock wall behind her disheveled hair, all filtered through the grainy colors and low-resolution pixels of the jailhouse camera. Together, these elements scream the words that news anchors and police beat reporters don’t even need to use: bad mommy.

She is Christene Beam. Or Jennifer Silva. Or Juanita Elkins. Or Talisha Redic. Or Tiffany Rios. And she has been charged with endangering her “unborn child” for taking drugs while pregnant.

Their faces make the newspaper or the 9 p.m. cable broadcast, set alongside a damning headline. Something with a nice jumble of fear-inducing keywords: “pregnant,” “mother,” “meth,” “cocaine,” “unborn,” or “baby.”

Then, after their trial-by-media, they mostly disappear. Perhaps viewers and readers imagine them in jail, serving hard time for their moral failures as women and mothers living with substance addiction.

The thing is, what they’ve done isn’t actually illegal in Texas.

Yet.

Protected Under the Law?

According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 38 states have “fetal homicide” laws on the books that increase penalties for crimes committed against pregnant people and the embryo or fetus inside them. Texas’ law, signed by Gov. Rick Perry in 2003, is one of the broadest in the country. It defines an individual as “a human being who is alive, including an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth,” meaning that, for example, a drunk driver who kills a pregnant person can be charged with a crime against two separate people.

But the Texas law also makes an important exception: A pregnant person cannot be charged with injury to their own fetus, and neither can a doctor performing legal abortion care with “requisite consent.” This exception, nestled into the 2003 modification of the Texas Penal Code, ensures that a crime “does not apply to conduct charged as having been committed against an individual who is an unborn child” if said conduct is “committed by the mother of the unborn child.”

This provision should shield pregnant people from accusations of child endangerment toward their own embryos or fetuses. In fact, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott effectively confirmed in a 2005 ruling that the law does provide this shield; the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals also issued an opinion on the matter in 2006, overturning the conviction of two Texas women who had been sentenced to jail for taking drugs during their pregnancies.

But that hasn’t stopped prosecutors in the vast, largely rural swath of the state west of Interstate Highway 35 from charging women with reckless child endangerment for ingesting controlled substances while pregnant. And inevitably, these allegations are accompanied by the over-saturated mugshots and scandalized copy that have become the hallmark of local media reports.

Attorney Farah Diaz-Tello, an Austin native who works for the New York-based watchdog organization National Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW), keeps an eye on the news for these stories and then intervenes whenever she can.

“The media loves ‘Bad meth mom arrested!’” Diaz-Tello told RH Reality Check. “That’s how we find out.”

Diaz-Tello, who works pro bono, then reaches out to the lawyers who handle these cases, nearly always court-appointed, overburdened public defenders who might not realize that their clients have been wrongfully charged with a non-crime.

“The law is pretty clear,” she said. “Theoretically, the fact that the law doesn’t permit that charge means it shouldn’t be brought.”

Police and prosecutors, though, nevertheless pursue these cases. The child endangerment statute casts a wide net: The accused may have “intentionally, knowingly, recklessly or with criminal negligence, by act or omission” done something to place “a child younger than 15 in imminent danger of death, bodily injury, or physical or mental impairment.” As a state jail felony, it carries a maximum fine of $10,000 and between 180 days and two years of imprisonment.

In some instances, babies test positive for drugs soon after they’re born, and doctors and hospitals, in an attempt to comply with another Texas law about reporting babies “born addicted,” pass on their findings to Child Protective Services or local law enforcement officials. In others, ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends file reports with police, CPS, or even directly with prosecutors—sometimes from hundreds of miles away—alleging that their partners have endangered their children while pregnant.

The upshot? District attorneys and cops get to look tough on drug crime. Anti-choice lobbyists and lawmakers get to brag about their compassion for the unborn. And the public gets to sneer and jeer at “bad mommy” mugshots. What rarely gets reported, however, is that after the initial allegations make the evening news, these erroneous endangerment charges don’t stick, thanks to smart public defenders and reproductive rights lawyers like Diaz-Tello.

But dodging the child endangerment charge doesn’t necessarily mean that these women, or their families, can walk away scot-free. Instead, mothers are nearly always persuaded to plead guilty to possession or other drug-related offenses, which often carry heftier penalties of incarceration; judges may take the child endangerment charges into consideration as well.

Pregnant women, particularly those with substance addiction, don’t tend to fare well in the heavily privatized Texas jail and prison system. Earlier this summer, a San Antonio woman was denied the medical methadone treatment she needed to maintain a healthy pregnancy when she was jailed in Guadalupe County. It wasn’t until she reached out to NAPW for intervention—and pleaded with institutional officials and her parole board—that she was released to home monitoring, where she could continue her drug treatment program. Research suggests, too, that alternatives to incarceration, such as substance abuse rehabilitation programs, are less expensive for taxpayers and more effective at reducing recidivism.

And if women are charged after their babies are born, or if they have other children, those kids will often be funneled into Texas’ overtaxed foster care program, especially if there are no family members available to take on the responsibilities of child care. Lawmakers have continuously attempted to privatize this underfunded state agency, even as children die under the supervision of the supposedly superior corporations.

Furthermore, university research suggests that kids whose mothers are incarcerated “may be more likely to experience a disruption in the caregiving environment” compared to those whose fathers are incarcerated, potentially putting those “children at higher risk for insecure or disrupted attachment relationships,” which could “compromise children’s health and development.”

Still, one West Texas prosecutor told RH Reality Check that he believes incarceration is the best solution when pregnant Texans use drugs.

Joel Wilks, a Taylor County assistant district attorney in Abilene who brought a child endangerment charge against a pregnant woman named Juanita Elkins in 2012, told RH Reality Check that he would have liked to put Elkins in prison on the charges, but Texas’ abortion-exemption statute got in the way.

“We were kinda screwed on that deal,” he said. While Wilks believes “there’s no easy solution” in these cases, he said “there’s a deterrence factor” in being able to prosecute pregnant people for ingesting controlled substances, and an opportunity for “retribution.”

Elkins was one of at least two Taylor County women arrested for using drugs while pregnant who have recently faced the state jail felony-level punishment for child endangerment. Elkins was arrested under this statute in 2012; the other woman, Jennifer Silva, was eventually charged the same year after originally testing positive for methamphetamine when she gave birth in 2009.

The endangerment charges against both women were ultimately dropped after Diaz-Tello cold-called their public defenders and helped pass on legal arguments that convinced reluctant prosecutors, including Wilks, to dismiss the cases.

“The beneficial thing about hearing from [NAPW] out of the blue was we didn’t have to go looking for that information,” recalled Kory Robinson, the Abilene criminal defense lawyer who was appointed to defend Silva in 2012. At the time, he had already considered looking at the statute of limitations on Silva’s case due to the length of time between her original drug test and her arrest, but Diaz-Tello helped shore up his case against the legality of bringing the endangerment charges in the first place.

Robinson remembers presenting his case to Taylor County assistant district attorney Dan Joiner, who “got very upset,” he said, throwing up his hands and storming out of their meeting. But two weeks later, in October 2012, Joiner—”a very good, fair guy,” in Robinson’s estimation—dismissed Silva’s endangerment charges. According to the Abilene Reporter-News, Silva no longer has custody of her child.

Less than six months later in the same jurisdiction, assistant district attorney Wilks dropped similar charges against Elkins.

Wilks told RH Reality Check he wanted to prosecute Elkins on charges of drug possession with intent to distribute, with endangerment charges tacked on “for punishment.”

Ultimately, his plan didn’t work. Wilks dropped the endangerment charges, and Elkins pleaded guilty to drug charges in exchange for ten years of probation.

“In some ways, prison gets a bad rap,” Wilks continued, though he conceded that it’s a “tough call.” He thinks incarceration would have helped Elkins and women like her, even if it means turning children over to foster care.

“Prison does keep you away from drugs and stuff,” said Wilks, who noted that the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, which oversees Texas state prisons and jails, offers a special program for pregnant inmates. (The availability of similar opportunities is varied at county jails, which are generally privatized.) “I think [incarceration] does have a rehabilitation effect,” he said.

Diaz-Tello sees it very differently. She said that if prosecutors had gotten their way, Elkins could have pleaded guilty “to a crime that doesn’t exist,” potentially setting a legal precedent that could inspire the Texas legislature to amend the existing penal code or give courts room to make attempts at reinterpreting the law—ones that could threaten pregnant people’s authority over their own bodies.

Left With No Option

As legislators and law enforcement officials move to toughen fetal homicide laws throughout the country, reproductive rights supporters have grown increasingly nervous at the possibility of these laws affording a kind of legal “personhood” to fetuses that may contradict the rights of pregnant people.

Some states, for example, have passed fetal homicide laws ostensibly meant to target criminal doctors like Kermit Gosnell, though evidence collected by RH Reality Check last year suggests that Gosnell, a rogue provider who preyed on low-income women with no access to safe abortion care, was an extreme outlier. Instead, a study conducted by NAPW found that the provisions often give law enforcement officials room to hold pregnant people “legally liable for the outcome of their pregnancies.”

Laws of this kind that don’t carefully provide exceptions removing pregnant people from being charged with harm to their own fetuses could, if Roe v. Wade were to be overturned, allow states to prosecute individuals for trying to end their own pregnancies.

In Texas, noted Abilene prosecutor Wilks, “we have very pro-unborn protections as far as DWIs” and other crimes committed against pregnant people.

“But,” he continued, “to make an abortion legal, we have to make some exceptions to that as far as the actions of the mother or a medical professional acting on behalf of the mother.”

Wilks acknowledges that rewriting the Texas Penal Code to enable prosecutors like him to put substance-addicted mothers in prison—but still preserve the overall right to legal abortion—would be a difficult endeavor.

“You could write it a little better, say if your intent is to terminate the life of the fetus then you’re covered,” Wilks mused, suggesting that the law could be clarified to reflect whether an offender was trying to specifically end their pregnancy or whether they had used a substance that happened to result in fetal harm. “But then what do you do? You get somebody who said, ‘I can’t afford an abortion, so I thought I’d try to have a spontaneous abortion by smoking meth.’”

Wilks perhaps inadvertently hit on something that’s been worrying Diaz-Tello ever since she traveled back home to Austin last summer to protest Texas’ omnibus anti-abortion law, HB 2. In a state where lawmakers have taken guaranteed access to legal abortion care out of the hands of all but the wealthiest Texans, she said, “carrying a pregnancy to term is not always a choice.”

Just two years ago, Texans who live along the western Interstate-20 corridor—in Abilene, Midland, and Odessa—had access to legal abortion care nearby at a handful of Planned Parenthood facilities dotting the windy West Texas landscape. Then, in 2011, the state of Texas slashed family planning funds and ended all public funding of Planned Parenthood, forcing dozens of clinics to close.

Rural areas like the Rio Grande Valley and West Texas were the hardest hit. All legal abortion facilities in the West Texas triangle between El Paso, San Antonio, and Fort Worth closed their doors or stopped providing abortion care.

Then came HB 2, which, in part, requires all abortion facilities to operate as hospital-like ambulatory surgical centers. Earlier this month, a Fifth Circuit Court ruling closed all but eight Texas abortion clinics when it allowed HB 2 to go into full effect. Two weeks later, the Supreme Court granted abortion providers a temporary reprieve from the law; as of October 15, eight clinics had been able to reopen, bringing the total number of legal abortion providers in Texas up to 16.

But because of these court rulings, access to legal abortion care can change overnight in Texas. If federal courts allow HB 2 to go back into effect—and evidence suggests that the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals would like to see it so—the only legal abortion providers that will remain in Texas will be located in Fort Worth, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, and Austin. The wealthiest West Texans might be able to drive or fly hundreds of miles round-trip to those cities, or to New Mexico. Others might try, as Wilks speculated, to end their pregnancies by other means, risking legal ramifications in the process.

“That’s what happens when you can’t terminate a pregnancy when you want to do so,” said Diaz-Tello. She says that by bringing child endangerment charges against pregnant substance users, the state is effectively saying that “by being a person who is an addict and pregnant, you have some sort of heightened obligation to the state [to preserve fetal life], which is answerable by a prison term.”

Rather than offering substance-addicted pregnant Texans abortion care if they choose—thus circumventing the child endangerment issue—or rehab in their communities, however, officials instead incarcerate them, said Diaz-Tello. This, she noted, could push more marginalized people into a criminal justice system that she described as “broken beyond belief.”

Diaz-Tello is far less optimistic than Wilks about the benefits of incarcerating mothers of young children. She says that it can be difficult to win over hearts and minds, even in the pro-choice and reproductive justice communities, when she talks about people who struggle with substance addiction. However, she points out, the charges these women face are potentially a harbinger of broader restrictions to come.

“Even if people don’t care about the lives of people who are addicted,” said Diaz-Tello, “I hope that they would be able to see that the prosecution of drug-using women are usually just the first volley in going after the most vulnerable, most marginalized population, to build precedent, so that they can go against people who look more like them.”

In other words, attempts to criminalize pregnancy in Texas could not only break up families by forcing pregnant women into prisons and children into foster care; they could be the starting point for a new strike on reproductive rights across the state.

The Threat of Fetal “Personhood”

Such creeping attacks on choice are already beginning to emerge elsewhere. In 2014, Tennessee lawmakers became the first in the United States to explicitly criminalize drug use during pregnancy; Gov. Bill Haslam signed the bill into law in April. Meanwhile, courts in South Carolina and Alabama have also empowered prosecutors to seek charges against pregnant people for drug usage. In all three states, Black women are expected to be disproportionately negatively affected.

This punitive climate scares many people away from seeking health care they need—a particularly tragic consequence, in light of evidence that shows substance-using pregnant women who have access to prenatal care experience better perinatal outcomes than those who don’t.

At the NAPW offices in New York City, Diaz-Tello says she gets phone calls “every week” from women in the South who fear they’ll go to jail if they seek substance abuse treatment while they’re pregnant.

“The number one thing is that people avoid prenatal care and drug treatment,” as a result of these kinds of laws, said Diaz-Tello. “They’re terrified.”

And they have good reason to be: In July, Tennessee’s SB 1391 had only been in effect for one week before Mallory Loyola was arrested for “exposing her child to amphetamine”—in other words, using drugs while pregnant. Loyola faces a fine of up to $2,500 and up to one year in jail.

For now, women in Texas are ostensibly protected from the kind of treatment those in Tennessee, Alabama, and South Carolina are facing. Still, as in the past, that hasn’t stopped more child endangerment charges from cropping up. In the last year, two more West Texas women have been arrested, this time in Ector County.

The first case, involving an Odessa woman named Talisha Redic, is particularly heartbreaking: She gave birth prematurely to a child in 2013 that was found to have cocaine in its system. Afterwards, six of Redic’s living children, between the ages of two and 11 years old, tested positive for cocaine in late 2013. The infant died, and a warrant was issued for Redic’s arrest on six counts of child endangerment.

In December 2013, Redic turned herself in to the local authorities; Ector County District Attorney Bobby Bland brought a seventh child endangerment charge against Redic for ingesting cocaine while she was pregnant with her now-deceased child.

Bland issued a statement saying that his office had been denied an opportunity to put Redic in jail for life.

“The maximum punishment for the current charges is two years in prison. Had an autopsy been performed, we might have been able to develop evidence sufficient to charge the Defendant with a first-degree felony, which carries the maximum penalty of life,” said Bland in a February 2014 statement. He continued, “Justice has been denied for this infant’s death.”

For failing to complete the autopsy, a grand jury found earlier this year that “the Investigators of the Ector County Medical Examiner’s Office lack credibility, competence and accountability … which has limited our ability to fully investigate the matter at hand.”

Bland then pushed for the medical examiner’s office to be entirely disbanded, which the county commissioner’s court rejected. The chief medical examiner has since left her post for a different county department.

But while Redic awaits trial on her seven charges, Bland has turned his attention to a second Ector County woman, Tiffany Rios, who was arrested in September 2014 after giving birth in March to a child who tested positive for cocaine.

Rios failed to appear at her scheduled September arraignment, which means she hasn’t yet been assigned a public defender. RH Reality Check attempted to reach Rios at the address listed with the court, but was told that she didn’t live at the residence.

When RH Reality Check contacted Bland by phone for comment on the Rios case, he said he couldn’t weigh in on a pending charge, but that he was aware that the Texas Penal Code exempts pregnant women from being charged with injury to their own fetuses.

“My job is to enforce the law and to make sure that justice is served,” Bland said. When asked how incarcerating Rios might serve a larger public safety interest, Bland replied, “That’s not an appropriate question.”

Once again, it appears Farah Diaz-Tello, who hopes to intervene in Rios’ case if she can, has found herself at odds with a prison-minded prosecutor.

“You can do just about anything in the name of a fetus,” Diaz-Tello said.

And in West Texas, prosecutors aim to try.

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  • refruits

    Yep its all about putting women in an impossible situation and then punishing them when they fail.

  • TheBrett

    This does not bode well if they do ever manage to back-door ban abortion down there. Want to bet there will be wave after wave of prosecutor and press harassment of women suspected of having abortions?

    • catseye

      Including women being charged with “murder” if they pass a clot during their period. Goddess save us all!

  • Nessie

    So Texas lawmakers will punish pregnant women for being addicted to drugs, but don’t give a damn about the fraking companies poisoning born people and fetuses alike?

    • Arachne646

      Or the abysmal rate of premature birth and perinatal death associated with poverty and lack of quality prenatal care for poor pregnant women, especially in states like Texas which refused to expand Medicare. America’s numbers on maternal and perinatal mortality are on a par with developing countries, not other rich ones (even if you include all births, rich to very poor). That’s not pro-life, that’s just in favor of controlling women’s sex lives.

      • Shan

        It’s a twofer, really, because it punishes pregnant women for having sex AND for being poor.

    • L-dan

      See comment above about liking to go after those who can’t hit back. Honestly, I wonder if that’s not the fastest way to see all these ‘fetal harm’ and ‘fetal homocide’ bills vanish; start suing companies poisoning the air and water, cities/municipalities for the unhealthy conditions of poor areas of the cities, etc.

      I mean, it’s kind of a tainted victory either way. Either they cling to those laws and we’re stuck with them prosecuting ‘bad mommies’ but also possibly cleaning up some of the other problems, or they drop these laws and we continue to press for the environmental change with tools that haven’t proven as effective. Fucked up all around, but if states are going to pass these laws, they should learn they can be used for more than continuing the war on women.

      • Nessie

        Indeed. “Pro-fetus” unless helping involves actual time, money, and effort on their part.

    • Everybodhi

      If they cared so much about the unborn’s future, why do they keep ignoring the destruction of the menz sperm by drugs, alcohol and chemicals.
      Why are men not held accountable for their role in birth defects and low birth rates? They are killing the babeez!
      http://fasalaska.com/DadsBirthDefects.html

      • Nessie

        Excellent point.

  • Shan

    “When asked how incarcerating Rios might serve a larger public safety
    interest, Bland replied, “That’s not an appropriate question.””

    Well, that says a lot.

    • lady_black

      Then it’s not an appropriate incarceration.

  • lady_black

    Myintx is all on board for this. She wants all pregnant addicts jailed whether they deliver or abort, even miscarriage. Funny this article should appear today.

    • refruits

      And that idiot, “anotheanonymous” is accusing us of trolling poor widdle myintx. And Joshua is denying that he is making the “pregnancy is like breathing” argument.

      • lady_black

        Joshua is young, idealistic and sheltered and was born on third base. He thinks he hit a home run. There is no excuse for Myintx.

        • refruits

          I wonder if he’s catholic, because most of his arguments are a more ‘scientific’ version of the crap that Rita spews.

          Myintx is a sociopath. I swear.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Myintx is a garden variety drunk.

          • Nessie

            And not a pretty garden, either.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Full of stickers and rotting zucchini.

          • expect_resistance

            i agree. It’s Friday night and I’m drinking wine. Please tell me if I’m too drunk and sound like myintx.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Not yet.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            post script – you would have to drink everyday and never quite sober up and even then you would not sound as bad as myintx.

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks.

          • fiona64

            I agree with you; she’s a sociopath. I have been on the ‘net since the earliest days of BBSs … before the WWW really was much of a thing. And she is the *meanest, most hateful individual I have ever run across.* Seriously.

    • fiona64

      I swear to god, if I ever meet that dumb bint in person, I will knock her head off into a busy street so that some feral toddler will find it.

      I am so sick and tired of her.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I can’t stand Myintx. She is one of the most hateful women I have ever met.

        • fiona64

          I am seldom moved to violence, but she manages to do it for me in mere seconds. I swear, if she were on fire, I wouldn’t pee on her to put her out.

        • Arekushieru

          Oh, I think I hate Xalisae even more. I first encountered her on twitter. She is a DICK.

      • Ella Warnock

        I’ll tell you what, though: She perfectly represents the callousness and lack of empathy so common among the ‘pro-life.’ She’s like all of them rolled up into one bitter nutball. She was probably always crazy, but that whole oopsie-turned-into-single-motherhood seems to have really pushed her over the edge. She’s like ‘xalisae’ in a way. They both did the ‘right thing,’ but life didn’t reward them with a tiara, roses, and udder rubs for it, and they’re damn well pissed off about it.

        • refruits

          OH god, Faye is so full of hate. I don’t know whether to find it funny or sad.

          • Ella Warnock

            A bit of both, I think.

          • night porter
          • Ella Warnock

            Calvin sez: No. I have never heard a pro-lifer say married couples should only have
            sex when they intend to reproduce. Sounds like more than a few false,
            prejudiced stereotypes are driving your view of the issue.

            Either he never reads the comments on his own home site, or he’s a liar. Hmmmm . . .

          • fiona64

            Calvin seems to have a very selective memory.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, and PJ is ‘hypersexual and bisexual.’ She’s a groovy pro-lifer, yo!

          • night porter

            You have reminded me that she http://www.travelvivi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/strokkur-geyser.jpg and I h8 u for that.

          • Ella Warnock

            Heh, sorry.

          • fiona64

            OMG: Dudebros ‘R’ Us all over Amanda’s latest article .. just as predicted.

          • night porter

            I have been reading…

          • fiona64

            Please come and smack Sean N. upside his stupid head. Thanks in advance.

          • night porter

            Will do.

          • night porter

            Meh! They closed it! If he follows you to another thread I’ll jump in. I get all of my Disqus updates through email, and it’s been wonky as of late – I woke up this morning to 600 updates in my inbox:( Had to delete half of them because it would have taken hours to sort through.

          • fiona64

            This is why I no longer get Disqus updates in my e-mail. :-)

          • night porter

            I chose to, even with the pain that it is, because I can’t keep track of comment threads otherwise, what with Disqus’ habit of hiding comments!

    • fiona64

      Today she informed me that if a woman is beaten and miscarries, the *woman* should be investigated. She is sick.

      • lady_black

        Yeah? I think that’s another instance in which I’d exercise my rights to slam the door in the face of a cop.

        • expect_resistance

          Yes! They don’t get in my house without a warrant.

      • HeilMary1

        She should arrest herself for caffeine-induced miscarriages, assuming anyone has sex with her.

        • expect_resistance

          But she thinks she’s above everyone else. She fights for the rights of fertilized eggs so she thinks she’s superior. I keep bringing up the tampon funeral and she freaks out. I think she thinks I’m pure evil. If so I find it funny.

          • Ella Warnock

            The tampon funeral really winds them up. ;->

          • expect_resistance

            When I post the “tampon funeral” she lectures me that I’m mean and not sensitive to women who’ve miscarried. She fails to understand if there is no implantation no pregnancy.

          • Ella Warnock

            She’s not sensitive to women who’ve miscarried, either, since she thinks so many of them should be investigated for aborting rather than miscarrying. Actually, she’s just not sensitive to ANY women.

          • expect_resistance

            I agree.

          • catseye

            Women who suffer from externalized self-hatred are a menace to themselves and any other woman in their vicinity.

          • HeilMary1

            Who knew “pro-lifers” were all Andrea Yates toilet drowners of tampon “babies?” If priests believed their own crap catechisms, they’d be permanently stationed by bathrooms to deliver baptisms, last rites and flush funerals for most bloody tampons! Catholic bathrooms should be equipped with little Barbie-sized flower wreaths to toss in before the flush.

          • expect_resistance

            I found a website that sells tampon funeral coffins. There not selling for real but making the point about the tampon funeral. I posted it to myintx and she freaked out. I like your idea of the Barbie sized wreaths. Very funny.

      • expect_resistance

        I know it’s difficult to comprehend the shit she posts.

      • lady_black

        I think you should know, she denies saying that. She’s such a liar.

        • fiona64

          I quoted her directly and she denied her own words … and then started backpedaling to say “I meant if the DOCTOR says it’s suspicious.”

          She is indeed a liar.

          • lady_black

            And I told her that a woman is NOT a child, and that if she claims she fell down the stairs, the doctor has to take her word for it, no matter how dubious. They may NOT call law enforcement against her express wishes. And if they do, she can tell the cops to go, um, fornicate with themselves in the town square. I don’t know WHERE she gets these bizarre ideas.

          • fiona64

            Out of her arse, just like everything else she says …

    • fiona64

      She’s always bitching about how OB/GYNs “profit” from abortion, too. I guess she’s too stupid to handle this little factoid: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/10/us-hospital-bill-goes-viral-this-is-what-childbirth-costs-without-a-national-healthcare-service/

      A $42K bill for labor and delivery services … and somehow the same OB is “profiting” on a $500 procedure?

      • refruits

        Yes, and the whole “birth and or c section is pain free” is absolute bullshit and cannot be guaranteed, as a poster on the Atlantic said that the epidural did not take and she felt every second of her c section.

        If forced, that is state sponsored torture.

        • almond_bubble_tea

          Can someone link me to this story? Thanks in advance.

        • Mindy McIndy

          Painless my ass. My mom had a breach birth with my brother. He came out folded in half, butt first. They wouldn’t call in the anasthesiologist because they didn’t want to wake him up. (Seriously.) No epidural, nothing. It tore her from her vagina to her anus. She had to have a surgery to repair that damage, and her birth with me, while I was not breach, was a nightmare as well. Painless? Fuck that shit.

          • night porter

            Exactly. There is no guarantee. Great pain and damage is always a possibility. Forced gestation and birth = torture

          • Mindy McIndy

            Though this is TMI for any daughter to know, it completely ruined my mother’s sex life, making it insanely painful for her, and she ended up with a full hysterectomy soon after my birth. She’s never been the same since it happened. She never took it out on us kids- she loves us to pieces- but I feel so bad for her.

          • night porter

            And it sickens me to think how forced birthers have zero empathy for female suffering – as long as the zygote gets to live

          • Mindy McIndy

            And if her husband wants to fuck, well, that is her duty. Luckily, my mom married a good man in her second marriage who understands why this is an impossibility for her, and tended to her bedside for surgery after surgery to repair this mess.

          • catseye

            Because you care. How not?

          • catseye

            If she hadn’t been operated on to put her back together, she would have had an obstetric fistula, from the sound of things.

      • expect_resistance

        She also doesn’t want to talk about the money CPCs get from the state of Texas. She’s so pissed off about the bingo drinking game.

        • Ella Warnock

          If she hates the drinking game, we should definitely do it MOAR!

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, come over to SPL.

        • fiona64

          If she wasn’t so damned predictable, the game wouldn’t work. No one’s fault but her own.

  • Nicko Thime

    Womb nazis will do anything their belief calls for.

  • ORAXX

    Texas Republicans rarely pick fights with people who can fight back. They love saddling up their moral high horse and riding around beating up on the politically powerless. It isn’t limited to Texas either.

    • HeilMary1

      The “pro-life” version of eugenics!

    • Nessie

      Very true. That’s why-as has been frequently pointed out in discussions about these laws-the vast majority of women arrested are poor and/or colored, even though a large percentage of drug users are upper/middle-class whites.

  • lmwilker

    In Indiana, a woman, Bei Bei Shuai, was charged with knowingly killing a viable fetus, after her suicide attempt by ingesting rat poison failed to kill her but did result in the death of her daughter after she was delivered at 33 weeks. She spent a year in jail before being bonded out and pleaded guilty to the charge of criminal recklessness, a misdemeanor, in August, 2013 and served no additional jail time.

  • lmwilker

    In Indiana, a woman, Bei Bei Shuai, was charged with knowingly killing a viable fetus, after her suicide attempt by ingesting rat poison failed to kill her but did result in the death of her daughter after she was delivered at 33 weeks. She spent a year in jail before being bonded out and pleaded guilty to the charge of criminal recklessness, a misdemeanor, in August, 2013 and served no additional jail time.

  • Blue Orion

    If it is endangerment to a zef to do drugs, alcohol (not illegal yet, but some are pushing for it), than wouldn’t a logical conclusion lead to banning even conceiving if you have a genetic disorder? After all, intentionally having a child when you have genetic disorder that could cause abnormalities, would mean you are endangering that child, if people are going to play it that way.

    • HeilMary1

      Cardinal Faulhaber talked Hitler into interning (in death camps!) 1,000 Aryans with genetic disorders, rather than “sinfully” sterilizing them so they could then have non-procreative sex.

    • refruits

      I would think so. I have asked PLers this very question and they have simply said that existence beats non existence

      • Nessie

        Nearly all people who are opposed to abortion are also opposed to voluntary euthanasia, or even removing brain-dead patients from life support.

        • refruits

          As Fiona keeps repeating…fear of non existence

          • fiona64

            It’s all about existential angst.

        • HeilMary1

          Meanwhile, they have no problem forcing starvation, plague and war deaths on millions of poor. They oppose voluntary euthanasia because it’s voluntary and shortens senseless suffering. They get holy orgasms by imposing involuntary suffering on everyone else.

          • Nessie

            Don’t forget how many of them are against vaccines and other disease-prevention measures.

          • catseye

            I just love how the anti-vaxxers screech about “toxic mercury” in vaccine preservative but most of them have a whole mouthful of mercury-amalgam fillings. Sheeeeeesh!

          • Nessie

            I’m not certain, but I suspect that the average can of tuna contains more mercury than the average vaccine. So where’s the crusade against tuna-salad sandwiches in the school cafeteria?

          • catseye

            I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if there’s more mercury in a tuna sandwich than in a vaccine.

          • Nessie

            Weird how a food can be good for you and bad for you at the same time.

      • Blue Orion

        So……drinking while pregnant and endangering fetus: bad,
        Procreating while having severe genetic disorder that endangers fetus: good.

        I’ll never get Pro-lifer logic. There are so many levels of wrong with their line of thinking. But if the drinking preggers woman is the be punished, then by their line of reasoning, the ones with genetic abnomalities that are breeding are endangering them too. Or anyone that has had an x-ray but somehow did not protect the ovaries. Eating too much sugar could be considered a crime. Living in a place with high levels of radiation could be considered a crime against a fetus.

        • refruits

          Existential angst. That’s at the heart of it. And punishing women for having sex.

          BTW, welcome to RHRC. I recognize you from MJ I think. Either that or the Atlantic. We have spoken before – I change nyms a lot.

          • Blue Orion

            Yeah, I was on Mother Jones a few times. Glad to talk to ya.

          • refruits

            Yes. You know your biology. You introduced the “dental glory” chicken example re gene expression which has been very helpful.

          • Blue Orion

            Oh, wow good memory! I have a BS in Biology, and I’m a bird nerd to boot, so avian physiology and evolutionary history has been a big interest of mine, though I’ve yet to formally study it (I studied tardigrades in college, which is a microscopic invertebrate).

            It’s has been a long-time observation of mine that Pro-lifers don’t really understand the steps of gene expression as an embryo develops, but since that relies on an understanding of basic evolutionary concepts, and many of them are anti-evolution, it’s not surprising. It’s exasperating, but what can you do?

            “All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell,” House Science Subcommittee Chair Paul Broun (R-GA) said.

            Embryology denialism, weirdly, seems to be a thing.

          • refruits

            Chicken teeth is actually a great way to explain gene expression to people who believe in the homunculus theory of human development.

            The ‘zygotes are inherently rational’ argument is completely fallacious, as mere species membership is not some sort of evidence that every member of that species will have a specific trait. For example, if, as you suggest, ‘arms’ are something that we associate with humans, and person A never develops arms, we can’t exactly treat Person A as if they have arms simply because arms are a trait that is associated with h.sapiens as a species!

          • expect_resistance

            I think many “pro-lifers” are in denial of reality. I’m a “bird nerd” too. I’m not a scientist but just a bird watcher and naturalist. Just enjoyed the last bit of warbler migration this fall. The juncos arrived a few days ago.

          • Blue Orion

            I’ve got juncos year round up here in Puget Sound. I’m hoping for a Snowy Owl year this winter, but I think that’s another year off. They only come around every 3 to 4 years this part of the US. I’ve been a bird watcher since I was a little kid–pretty much my first love and eternal hobby.

          • fiona64

            Originally from PDX; we don’t have juncos where I am, and I always liked them. We do have black-capped chickadees, though, and those are also cute!

          • catseye

            Lots of chickadees down by my jobsite. And Steller’s Jays both by my job and my apartment. The jays rag on my cat Bartholomew and drive him nuts.

          • fiona64

            We have a scrub jay who visits the yard … and a boatload of both ravens and crows at work. The corvids are going crazy here these days.

          • expect_resistance

            Crows start to migrate to their winter roosts in fall. Could be why they are going crazy. We havr a huge winter roost of crows in MPLS. They gather by the thousands. It’s like a big crow party.

          • expect_resistance

            I love steller’s jays. They are loud crabby sounding jays. I used to live in the mountains in the sierras and loved watching the jays behavior. Smart birds.

          • catseye

            A couple of years ago, there was a mom and 3 babies in the tree outside my apartment, and I noticed that she made a different sound to attract the attention of each of the chicks. IOW, they had _names_! Waaaayyyy cool.

          • expect_resistance

            I’ve never seen a snowy owl. In in MN and we get a few snowys every year. Years ago we had a Great Gray owl invasion. They were everywhere in mid to northern MN. Incredible birds. My real love is warbler watching. I live for this every spring during spring migration. Glad to meet a fellow birdwatcher.

          • catseye

            One night after work at Call Center Hell in a PDX suburb, we were all waiting for the bus, and this HUGE barn owl came gliding up to the light standard, perched and watched us for a few minutes, and flew silently off. How cool is that when a bunch of city-dwelling low-income workers get to see a wild owl on their way home from work?

          • expect_resistance

            That is very cool.

          • Guest

            Evolution denialism is a thing, almost exclusively, in the USA, so I would imagine embryology denialism doesn’t exist much outside there, either. I could be wrong about that, though. High school science in Canada is perfectly adequate to fit someone for a lifetime of popular scientific interest in whatever field they choose, and even membership in an African Violet Club is going to bring you into

          • Nessie

            Not entirely true. Last I checked, the United States ranks second in evolution denial, with the top spot going to Turkey. Still, Number Two in the whole world; outstripped only by one Middle-Eastern country, doesn’t say anything good about us.

          • fiona64

            Pro-lifers don’t really understand the steps of gene expression as an embryo develops,

            It’s been my observation that they understand a whole lot less than that; even the most basic levels of viviparous vertebrate biology are beyond their comprehension, from what I can tell.

            In any event, welcome to RHRC!

          • expect_resistance

            I second that!

        • HeilMary1

          Fetal death-causing pollution is acceptable, depending on who profits. If a Nazi-hiring GOP fascist funder like Peter Grace of WR Grace murders millions with asbestos, that’s holy Catholic capitalism, but if a pro-choice Democrat’s green energy business eats into the Koch Brothers’ profits, that’s baby-killing, tree-hugging communism.

        • Nessie

          Or what if a pregnant women came down with an infectious disease? Would she be punished for not washing her hands enough, or not cooking her food properly?

      • HeilMary1

        This is why Cardinal Faulhaber talked Hitler into interning in abstinence-only death camps 1,000 Aryan “vermin” (Faulhaber’s very word for the disabled), instead of sterilizing them so they still work and marry. The Catholic Church prefers death for the disabled over their access to non-procreative sex.

  • JJ Marks

    Smoking during pregnancy is the worst drug for a fetus. Secondhand smoke also is bad. How about jailing smoking dads and other family members?

    • lady_black

      Smoking is legal. It doesn’t become illegal in the presence of a zef.

    • fiona64

      Smoking is not a crime.

      • JJ Marks

        The impact on the fetus is the issue, right? Also, I do not believe in incarcerating mothers for taking drugs during pregnancy. They need intervention, not punishment.

        • fiona64

          I concur with you. However, the point remains that smoking is not a crime.