Is Colorado’s ‘Personhood’ Amendment a Sweeping Approach to Ban Abortion?


Read more of our articles on Amendment 67 here.

Colorado voters will decide November 4 whether to expand the definition of a person in the state’s criminal code to include “unborn human beings.”

Backers of Amendment 67 argue that they aren’t aiming to ban abortion in Colorado, and they point out that “fetal homicide” laws in 38 states have yet to result in abortion bans, including laws in 24 states that give legal rights to fetuses at early stages of development.

But in a visit to Colorado during a campaign against the initiative, Lynn Paltrow, director of National Advocates for Pregnant Women, told reporters that Colorado’s Amendment 67 should not be compared to “fetal homicide” laws in other states because it’s unique among existing state laws in subjecting pregnant women to prosecution for almost any crime on the books.

This is in stark contrast to other state “fetal homicide” laws that amend a small number of statutes, and many that explicitly exempt abortion as a reason for prosecution or exclude pregnant women as perpetrators.

“Amendment 67 is an entire overhaul of the criminal code,” Paltrow said. “That’s every statute.”

Paltrow presented a series of slides during a presentation with the text of common criminal statutes in Colorado: murder, manslaughter, vehicular homicide, reckless endangerment.

She replaced the words “person” or “child” with “unborn human being.”

For example, you commit murder in Colorado if you intend “to cause the death of another person.” If “person” becomes “unborn child,” then abortion becomes murder, Paltrow said.

Paltrow showed a slide of Colorado’s child abuse statute, inserted “unborn human being” into the statute’s wording, and explained how the law, as changed under Amendment 67, could be used to investigate, prosecute, and arrest a pregnant women believed to have put her “unborn child” at risk.

“What they are asking the citizens of Colorado to do is put in place a set of laws that begins by saying, ‘We believe a woman who has an abortion is guilty of first degree murder and deserves either life in prison or the death penalty.’ There are no exceptions.”

“Anything that a woman does that someone later believes she shouldn’t have done becomes evidence of recklessness,” she continued. “Standing on a ladder. Painting your nursery at six-months pregnant and falling off. Skiing while pregnant. Driving without wearing a seat belt. Not obeying a doctor’s advice to get bed rest. Child abuse becomes fertilized-egg abuse.”

Asked if this could happen with Roe v. Wade on the books, Paltrow said, “As long as Roe lasts, this particular part of 67 might be considered unconstitutional, but our research has documented that there will be a prosecutor somewhere who, the minute this is passed, will apply the murder statute to a woman who has had an abortion or anybody who has helped her. And then that person will have a right to argue that Roe protects them, but they will be making that argument from a jail cell. Because in most states, if you are charged with the crime of murder, you’re not even entitled to bail. All it takes is one enterprising, election-hungry prosecutor.”

“The only thing that Roe protects is abortion,” Paltrow continued. “It doesn’t protect you against prosecution for still births or miscarriages or accusations of risk and harm, because remember that neglect and child abuse aren’t harm. They are risk of harm. The evidence of risk-of-harm from cigarettes is more than from criminalized drugs. So the prosecutor will start with the least popular women using the most unpopular criminalized drugs.”

Asked for a response to Patrow’s arguments, Jennifer Mason, a spokeswoman for Amendment 67, emailed that she intended to comment, but she never did, after multiple requests.

In an email last month, Mason pointed to existing “fetal homicide” laws in other states and wrote that concerns about abortion being banned under Amendment 67 are a “common talking point for anti-life groups.”

Mason and other proponents refer to the measure as the “Brady Amendment,” referring to the name “Brady” chosen by Heather Surovik for her 8-month-old fetus, destroyed in 2012 by a drunk driver. Surovik survived the crash and talks about the tragedy at press events and legislative hearings.

Surovik has maintained that Amendment 67 is not intended to address abortion in Colorado or to subject pregnant women to prosecution. It’s about justice, she says.

“Who looks at Brady and says he wasn’t a person?” Mason has said.

“The irony is, if this amendment in Brady’s memory succeeded, what Brady’s memory would really be doing is creating a law that could have had his mother arrested even if she’d done absolutely nothing wrong or reckless,” said Paltrow, citing a New York case in which a pregnant woman was convicted of manslaughter of her own child after being in a car accident. “What the Brady Amendment would do is make mothers absolutely vulnerable to arrest themselves.”

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  • refruits

    Exactly. The law will be interpreted as broadly as possible. Fill the prisons up with disenfranchised women who have bad pregnancy outcomes.

    • Pinkladyapple

      To them its a feature, not a bug. The ramifications of this law serve as a warning to all reproductive aged, heterosexual, fertile women, “SEE SLUT, If you dare try to exercise any bodily autonomy you will be punished”.

      • refruits

        Exactly. Except they can’t say it out loud, but it is in the subtext.

        • Pinkladyapple

          Some will absolutely say it out loud. These guys are just a wolf in sheeps clothing. They know a “personhood amendment” would never pass so they re branded it as something else to gain support from people who would otherwise slap this down. These people are crafty, manipulative, psychos.

  • StealthGaytheist

    It’s sad that a clump of cells could have more rights than a sentient human being.

    • HubCity

      It’s sad that some animals and plants have more protection and rights than “a clump of cells” that under normal circumstances would turn into a sentient human being.
      But I do agree that this law is ridiculous.

      • P. McCoy

        Animals have sentience. What has a Maple leaf ever done wrong to you? Why are you obsessed with the sex lives and medical decisions of people that are complete strangers to you? No one forces you to physically use birth control or to have or get an abortion; you have legal resources to prevent that. The Conservatives Christian puts themselves in an “good us” versus “bad anyone secular or liberal Christian them” as if the latter were going to torture or martyr them as if in the days of violent pagan Rome, when anyone with reason can see that Obama isn’t throwing them to the lions like Nero, or any of the punishments used against Christians pre Constantine.

        So to antagonize a public by forcing your beliefs onto others and claiming false persecution, victimhood in something that is narcissistic, pharaciacal, and in light especially of the evils committef blindly and written off with a “a church is for sinners, not saints and blame individuals not a still pure church (Catholic) ), it is foolish to not be surprised that when your religious freedoms are curtailed because you have used them as a political weapon in order to establish a theocracy in the United States, that no one maybe even Our Lord Himself, will not help you?

      • Nessie

        First off: over half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant in the uterus, meaning that “under normal circumstances” a zygote is most likely never going to become a person.
        Second: medical science has made it theoretically possible to grow a new human being from almost any diploid cell. So should we ascribe Personhood to skin and muscle cells?
        Potential is only that:potential. Pregnant women are actual people, who matter far more than potential people.

      • Arekushieru

        Why do you people always compare apples and oranges? The animal and plant are comparable to the WOMAN. The developing embryo is comparable to the individual PLANT and ANIMAL’S… developing embryo. Of course, if you people were to recognize how insulting it is to women to compare fully autonomous beings with an undifferentiated mass of cells, you would have no sound bites left to which you could resort.

        Also, animals and plants have LESS protection than an embryo, ESPECIALLY so if you are referring to the protections that anti-choice people would LIKE to grant to fetuses. Oops.

      • JamieHaman

        Yep. This law is ridiculous.

        We all know the Bible says to “be fruitful and multiply.” It also says to “be good stewards of the earth.”
        We’ve lost hundreds, if not thousands of animal and plant species in the last hundred years, and expect to lose hundreds more in the next fifty years.
        We’ve been fruitful and multiplied until we’re running out of room for anything BUT humans, and we haven’t been good stewards at all.

        I don’t think abortion is the answer to overpopulation, but believe contraceptives are, along with limiting the number of children anyone on the planet can have.

        • Arekushieru

          Also, ‘multiply’? If you have a man and woman who get together and have more than one child, they’ve already ‘multiplied’. After all, one man or one woman versus two children means an effect that has DOUBLED the cause. Religion and science don’t go well together too often, unfortunately.

  • JamieHaman

    Looks like this law is written to take advantage of a genuinely grieving mother, and by doing so to put intolerable limits on every pregnant woman in Colorado.
    Heather Surovik wants justice for her unborn son. Personally, I don’t blame her. This law could very easily been written differently, allowing other pregnant women, who chose to carry their child to birth to get justice.
    Instead, this looks like a heartrender if a way to prevent every abortion for every reason in Colorado. Which of course, automatically puts the so-called “rights’ of the “unborn” above the rights of every born person AND THEIR MOTHER in Colorado.

    Heather Surovik, I’m truely sorry for your loss. This law is not the way to justice for your son.

    • Pinkladyapple

      She could join alliances with Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Demand justice for all the born children that have been lost to drunk drivers.

      • Nessie

        Car crashes are the leading cause of death for American teenagers. “Pro-life” response: indifference.
        A pregnancy is lost as a result of a car crash. “Pro-life” response: lobbying and petitioning(all the while ignoring miscarriages and stillbirths caused by pollution or lack of prenatal care).

    • Ella Warnock

      ‘Personhood’ has lost over and over again in Colorado. Time for forced-birthers to glom onto a grieving mother in a dishonest attempt to gain some degree of credibility. Too bad for them that it looks like the slimy, underhanded gambit that it truly is.

  • Rita, Canberra

    Punitive laws for the crime of inflicting grievous bodily harm on unborn human beings like Brady are just and necessary. Fetal homicide is essentially a crime against the unborn child.

    A foundational commitment in the US Constitution is to “secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity”.

    The term “our Posterity” means “our progeny” and certainly covers unborn children at grave risk of homicide.

    When the principle of inalienability is applied to children at risk of the kind of harm to which Brady was subjected, State laws must affirm that no one may destroy any child’s right to life, nor deprive any human being (even an unborn child) of that right, nor transfer that right, nor renounce it. A child like Brady, no less than his mother, has human rights because he is a distinctly human being, a new and unrepeatable and identifiable human being whose rights are “unalienable”. State law is required to uphold the principle of inalienability which requires that innocent human beings cannot be lawfully deprived of the substance of their rights, not in any circumstances. Drunk driving resulting in arbitrary deprivation of Brady’s life is a crime and should be punished.

    • P. McCoy

      This insanity would not be going on if Colorado had not allowed such religious political fascists as Focus of The Family as well as the Catholic Church that is also a political organization masking under a church and religion to grab power in order to ensnare, enslave, as well as drag this state now and later the United States as a whole into the nightmarish jackboot misogynistic and anti secular rule that they would call “good Christian governance” aka the Christian Taliban!

    • HeilMary1

      You and your Nazi pedophile cult are a global crime wave against already born children and their womb-trafficked mothers. Keep your nose out of all other women’s panties.

    • HeilMary1

      Where’s your outrage over Sister Sosefina Amoa smothering her inconvenient newborn son to death?! Hypocrite you is OK with that because her son’s sole purpose was to injure her body during labor! You are simply sadistically pro-delivery injuries as punishment for sex. You are really sick.

  • Merari

    This is horrendous. What of the right of bodily autonomy of pregnant women, a fundamental human right? This would make them sub-human. Then again, I suppose women are already sub-human in the eyes of the people that want this kind of thing.

  • Kris Weibel

    I all this unapologetic hatred towards women a national epidemic? Unfucking real.

  • http://www.teamusa.org/usa-roller-sports crash2parties

    Possibly-unintended-but-I-don’t-think-so effect of this proposal:

    Barring obvious malpractice a doctor is somewhat protected if he tries to save a patient’s life and fails. Should this amendment come to pass it would mean two things:

    1.) Doctors must always choose the life of a fetus over that of a mother.

    2.) When in doubt, doctors have to “Let God decide” and withhold any treatment that might as a side effect cause the fetus to abort. Because of this, *any* treatment that is followed by a spontaneous abortion becomes suspect. Follow this out and any doctor, fitness trainer, employer, barrista or anyone else whose actions are followed by a failure of pregnancy could be charged with murder. And of course, correlations *will* be made after the fact following any spontaneous miscarriage, without much eye toward causation.

    • fiona64

      You know, back in the day, the husband used to be asked (in the cases of dangerous pregnancies) whether he wanted his wife or the fetus to be saved. Seriously. I have no doubt that there are a whole slew of people who think that there is no problem with this concept.

      • JamieHaman

        I remember that. When I had to have a C-section for my daughter, they asked my husband’s permission, after asking for mine. When I asked about it later, the doctor (a woman) told me the hospital was required to ask. She said that she always started the surgery before a nurse got consent, so it would be too late if a husband said no. Crazy.

        • lady_black

          That’s probably illegal.

          • JamieHaman

            Which part? Asking him, or waiting to ask? I was furious that they would ask him, it wasn’t his body getting surgery, it was mine.

          • lady_black

            Asking him. He can neither give consent for you, nor deny you a C-section. And with HIPPA, they can’t discuss your care with him at all, without your written permission.

          • JamieHaman

            It happened some 30 odd years ago, and before HIPPA, also in Louisiana, while the Napoleonic code was still in place. I do know they don’t ask now, but they sure did then. He told me he was surprised as hell over it, and told them do what ever I said. (He’s a long way from stupid, lol)

          • lady_black

            More than 30 years ago, I’m sure I could consent to my own C-section and nobody else was even asked.

          • lady_black

            More than 30 years ago, I’m sure I could consent to my own C-section and nobody else was even asked.

          • Kathi J

            Today but not prior to Roe. Women had to have permission from their husbands to do anything to their own bodies: abortions, C-sections, tubal ligations, ear piercing. Some men are still mourning those days.

          • lady_black

            I’m not too sure about that. I think you’re wrong.

          • Kathi J

            I am old enough to remember those times. I had a pre-Roe but legal abortion in 1967, despite the fact that he had nothing to do with the pregnancy (having already abandoned me & his kids) my estranged but still legal husband had to give his consent. That was so much fun. Women could not get tubals without their husbands’ permission. Men could block them from just about anything. The concept of bodily autonomy for women came along with Roe.

          • lady_black

            Gee. I think I would have decided not to have a husband under circumstances like that. I’m NOBODY’S property.

          • Kathi J

            Women have always had this problem in the US, in colonial and federal days single women could own property, had more rights than married women. Indeed we were “owned” by husbands. And yeah and a man could sue a doctor if he performed a tubal on his wife without his permission for the “damage” to his property. We’ve come a long way in a short time.

          • night porter

            You might find this to be a worthwhile read…

            http://books.google.ca/books/about/Pregnancy_and_Power.html?id=NQzVhWYYO9sC&redir_esc=y

            I only read the free part that was available on google, but I sure learned a whole lot

          • Kathi J

            My library has it and I think I’ll go get it out. Read a bit and it seems interesting. Thanks!

          • refruits

            Hey Kathi, you used to post on yahoo yes? Remember myintx?

          • Kathi J

            I still do post on Yahoo and of course I remember myintx, still run into her on abortion stories.

          • refruits

            Yeah. Do you recall if she told us back in the day that she works for a CPC in Texas? I remember either you or another regular commenter pointed that out.

          • Kathi J

            Oh yes, I mention that to her frequently, she has a vested interest in convincing young (white) girls and women not to terminate pregnancies, all those CPCs funnel into adoption agencies.

          • refruits

            Yeah, she denies it when we point it out. She has been getting her ass handed to her at Secular Pro Life blogs.

          • Kathi J

            Do you have links? I’d love to see that (and comment too!)

          • refruits

            Here is the most current
            http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/10/appealing-to-authorities.html?m=1#comment-1641480938

            I’ll have more for you later. In some old posts, Ann Morgan eats Mathilde alive

          • refruits

            here is another one where she is active:

            http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/10/dismantling-argument-that-pro-life-laws.html#comment-1642592857

            And an old article where Ann Morgan owns her ass:

            http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/08/abortion-prevention-dont-forget-about.html#comment-1576318707

            http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/06/one-absurd-conclusion-of-pro-choice.html#comment-1574777795

            http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/04/no-i-am-not-interested-in-punishing.html#comment-1553933252

            There are literally hundreds of comments where Ann rips Myintx a new one, so I would suggest either reading through the entirety of the links, or simply Read Ann’s Disqus history for the choice quotes – Ann primarily focuses on destroying Mathilde.

            BTW, are you aware of this?

            https://www.facebook.com/mathilde.young

          • Kathi J

            Thanks for all of this — I am a glutton for arguing with the rabidly anti-woman/anti-abortion fanatics! Retirement is wonderful, I have all the time in the world to harass them.

          • night porter

            Well stick around! SPL is great fun, because they try to pass their arguments off as ‘secular’ but really, when you reduce it, the arguments are all religiously based – natural law, zygotes are inherently rational, women were made for pregnancy etc

          • Kathi J

            Zygotes are little people — yep know that one. And the abortion as “convenience” and of course they are fine with abortion if a woman is dying, but only if that means dying right that minute, not to prevent her from being in the situation where she might die–blah, blah, blah. They try to sound reasonable but it’s really the same old arguments the religious anti-abortion folks make.

          • night porter

            Yeah. It amazes me that ‘she can only have an abortion if in danger of imminent death’

            Uhhh…in what other situation would we FORCE a person to sustain permanent disability in service of another? I mean really. And as you pointed out to Blueberry, if the woman is in danger of imminent death, a c-section and/or labour will likely KILL her. They have almost zero understanding of not only embryology, but basic medicine.

            Also, they believe that a suicidal rape victim can be forced to WANT to be pregnant if you simply counsel her and give her some drugs. I mean, that’s all it takes! And then everything will be hunky dory and the rape victim will be so happy that she didn’t ‘take an innocent human life’

            The most irritating thing is that they claim to be the true ‘humanitarians’, fighting for human rights. One asshat said that she was particularly concerned with children’s rights – so I asked her how she felt about 8 year old girls being forced to gestate, and she /ignored me.

          • Kathi J

            Is that FB her??

          • night porter

            Ayup

      • http://www.teamusa.org/usa-roller-sports crash2parties

        Well, sure. But only because back then a woman might be harmed by having her make such a decision, frail creatures that we are. Hey, d’you think this is the real reason they’re so against marriage equality? I mean, in their world that would mean a man would have that right of decision for (gasp) another man!

        • fiona64

          Well, sure. After all, we’re only property, like a cow or a car … so we can’t use our ladybrains for anything hard like deciding whether we want to live or die.

          I’ve said for ages that if you scratch a homophobe, a misogynist will bleed. It’s all about rigid gender roles with these people. In their minds, women are the walking equivalent of EasyBake Ovens. As the oven is made solely for baking tiny cakes, women are made solely for having babies. We’re nothing but the meat around our reproductive organs; why on *earth* would we want any say over what happens to us?

          • lady_black

            Yep. I shut one MRAsshole up when he was bellyaching about how poorly men are treated in family law courts by asking him how he thinks that works when both or neither spouse is a man. The poor thing’s head probably exploded trying to cipher that question according to his opinion about “How The World Works.”

    • lady_black

      I wouldn’t go so far as to say a doctor would always HAVE to choose the life of the fetus over the mother. That flies in the face of scientific fact.

      • http://www.teamusa.org/usa-roller-sports crash2parties

        Quite true, it’s a choice. If they get lucky and aren’t charged with the crime of endangering the fetus’ life, they *could* get away with it. But all it would take is one Right-to-Life nurse, clerk or distant relative of the woman turning the attending doctor into a local Conservative Christian DA to make their life quite difficult for a couple of years at minimum.

        See, that’s exactly the problem with blanket laws such as the one that would protect the fetus over the mother; their *goal* is to render “scientific fact” completely out of the picture, instead relying on irrational law.

        • lady_black

          Actually, what I’m claiming is that legally consideration of an embryo or fetus as a “person” wouldn’t change medical reality. It wouldn’t be a doctor “endangering” the life of a fetus, except through abortion. Not every patient is going to be saved, and there isn’t much medically that can be done for a fetus. That being said, I think these laws are an extremely poor idea. There’s nothing positive to be gained from them, and way too much potential for abuse. The case of Marlise Munoz comes to mind, as well as too many cases of fetal protection laws being used against pregnant women. Embryos and fetuses aren’t “persons” and there isn’t any possible way to give rights to them without taking them away from the women who carry them.

      • Kathi J

        It will put doctors in a very uncomfortable and tenuous position. They will be afraid for their own legal position rather than putting the patient, i.e. the woman, first. Pretty much what the situation has been in Ireland and still is to some extent.

  • Jacob R. Raitt, R.Ph, Ph.D

    Can the State that has legalized weed demonize women?

  • Ethos

    Great news, hope this passes. Brady was a person killed by a drunk driver but because people want to deny science and say he wasn’t a person he can’t receive the same type of justice you or I are entitled.

    • Shan

      “but because people want to deny science and say he wasn’t a person”

      No, that’s not why there are so many objections to the law. Did you read the article?

      • Ethos

        I did. The unborn child is currently denied ‘person’ status with respect to the law which is contrary to the scientific record. If the unborn child is accepted as a person in the eyes of the law it will then be a crime to harm it just as it’s a crime to harm a person.

        If “person” becomes “unborn child,” then abortion becomes murder, Paltrow said.

        • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

          “I did. The unborn child is currently denied ‘person’ status with respect to the law which is contrary to the scientific record.”

          Please tell us what the “scientific record” is with regard to personhood. I need you to make a fool of yourself. Nothing personal, I just need a laugh.

          “If the unborn child is accepted as a person in the eyes of the law it will then be a crime to harm it just as it’s a crime to harm a person.”

          There is no unborn child. There is an unborn fetus. A child has a child brain, child respiratory system, child digestive system and a child heart. The fetus has none of those things.

          “If “person” becomes “unborn child,” then abortion becomes murder, Paltrow said.”

          There is no such thing as an unborn child. Your belief is much like the early belief in the homunculus. There is no small human in the uterus. Get over it. Just because people “believe” the fetus is a baby does not make it so. In fact such beliefs derive from years of listening to propaganda. You are making fools out of innocent women that believe your lies.

          • Ethos

            A person is a human being. The law not considering the unborn a person is denying what they are and at odds with the scientific reality. I don’t roll with the whole relativistic philosophical debate on it, just the biology. All humans are persons, and all persons are humans. The only people who don’t use the two terms interchangeably are those attempting to justify abortion.

            per·son

            noun ˈpər-sən

            : a human being

            embryo

            [em′brē·ō]

            2 In humans the stage of prenatal development from the time of fertilization of the ovum (conception) until the end of the eighth week. The period is characterized by rapid growth, differentiation of the major organ systems, and development of the main external features.

            fe·tus

            noun ˈfē-təs

            : a human being or animal in the later stages of development before it is born

            “The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition]
            Here’s a quote concerning human development.

            “Nowhere in the chain of development does the offspring undergo a shift in species. It is human, and nothing less than human, from its first moments”

          • Shan

            No. See my reply to you below.

            You don’t understand the concept of *legal* personhood in the first place, never mind how this type of legislation has been being used against pregnant women for so many years.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            You are using what is known as a “Circular Reasoning Fallacy” that makes your entire argument invalid. Here, let me show you”

            “A person is a human being.”

            Here you define a person as a human being. But you do not define what a human being is comprised of.

            Then you fill in an area with unrelated information:

            “The law not considering the unborn a person is denying what they are and at odds with the scientific reality. I don’t roll with the whole relativistic philosophical debate on it, just the biology.”

            None of the above defines what a human being is or what a person is and is therefore irrelevant.

            Then you complete the Circular Reasoning Fallacy by defining humans as persons when you say:

            “All humans are persons, and all persons are humans.”

            That is a perfect example of a Circular Reasoning Fallacy.

            Then you try and justify your circular reasoning fallacy with an “affirming the consequent” fallacy.

            ” The only people who don’t use the two terms interchangeably are those attempting to justify abortion.”

            In effect your whole paragraph is a complete waste of time and of no value to anyone for any purpose.

            After your two fallacies above you offer more fallacies.

            You state with no proof and out of context:

            “The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition]”

            Your source does not support what you claim it supports. The source is speaking to the fact that of the 30 percent of conceptions that prove to be human life, the cycle the author is discussing begins at fertilization. The author clearly is speaking to the issue as it relates to human life that has already been assumed to be human. Because the scientific fact is that more zygotes are non human than human, he cannot be speaking of non human life. So your source does not agree with you.

            “Here’s a quote concerning human development.

            “Nowhere in the chain of development does the offspring undergo a shift in species. It is human, and nothing less than human, from its first moments”

            The author clearly does not support your claim. The author is speaking to the 30 percent of conceptions that are in fact human and will in fact become human babies. He is not speaking to the 70 percent of zygotes that are not destined to be human life. It is true that all human life came from human life but it is untrue that all life produced by humans becomes human life at conception or birth.

            Your statements are an example of an “affirming the consequent” fallacy and for that reason are invalid and of no use in this discussion.

            You really do not need to waste any more of your time trying to convince anyone of the validity of your fallacious ideas. I suggest that you drop this line of reasoning.

          • Ethos

            “Here you define a person as a human being. But you do not define what a human being is comprised of.”

            I assumed everyone here knew what they were but here you go…

            human being

            noun

            1.

            any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.

            2.

            a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species:

            Russell Said “Then you complete the Circular Reasoning Fallacy by defining humans as persons when you say:”

            –All humans are persons, and all persons are humans.

            I’d be interested to know the difference between the two if you come up with something Russell?

            Russell Said “You state with no proof and out of context:”

            –The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition]

            Out of context? Read the part where it says the development of A HUMAN BEING BEGINS…

            Nowhere in the chain of development does the offspring undergo a shift in species. It is human, and nothing less than human, from its first moments

            Russell Said “The author clearly does not support your claim.”

            Yes they do, they clearly state that it’s a human being, i.e., person from the beginning and doesn’t change into something else.

            Russell Said . It is true that all human life came from human life but it is untrue that all life produced by humans becomes human life at conception or birth
            So if it’s not a human life at conception or birth what is it Russell?

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            {{{{“Here you define a person as a human being. But you do not define what a human being is comprised of.”
            I assumed everyone here knew what they were but here you go…
            human being
            noun
            1.any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
            2.a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species:
            Russell Said “Then you complete the Circular Reasoning Fallacy by defining humans as persons when you say:”
            –All humans are persons, and all persons are humans.}}}}}}

            You understand that all you did is add another layer of circular reasoning, right?

            {{{I’d be interested to know the difference between the two if you come up with something Russell?}}}

            Sure, a “human being” is a physical construct and a “person” is a legal construct.

            {{{{Russell Said “You state with no proof and out of context:”
            –The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition]

            Out of context? Read the part where it says the development of A HUMAN BEING BEGINS…}}}}}}}}
            The context of the statement came from a larger body of work. The purpose of that work is based upon life that is already proved to be human and excludes non human life. Because more conceptions are not human life than are human life, your claim is out of context.

            {{{{{Nowhere in the chain of development does the offspring undergo a shift in species. It is human, and nothing less than human, from its first moments}}}}

            Again, you are taking that out of context. Of courser human life is human. But life with 66 human chromosomes will not produce a human with 46 human chromosomes.

            {{{{Russell Said “The author clearly does not support your claim.”
            Yes they do, they clearly state that it’s a human being, i.e., person from the beginning and doesn’t change into something else.}}}

            No, not one word in your quote mentions aneuploidy. Your quote is out of context and irrelevant.

            {{{Russell Said . It is true that all human life came from human life but it is untrue that all life produced by humans becomes human life at conception or birth
            So if it’s not a human life at conception or birth what is it Russell?}}}}

            It is a product of conception. Once it is born, it can be proved to be human life. Until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype at birth, there is no human life.

          • Arekushieru

            Even in your first definition of human being, if the definition given was reduced to its closest approximate biological equivalent, a fetus would not fit the criteria to be considered a human being. Why? Because to be an individual in that particular sense one would have to remain a complete member of the same species once their component parts had been divided down to the basic shared traits of that species. In the case of a fetus, that means removing the umbilical cord, placenta, amniotic sac, etc… and hoping that it remains a complete member of their species. It does not, and that is proven by the very thing that you anti-choicers claim to hate about abortion, that a fetus dies upon removal of those vital components. When dead you cannot be said to be a complete member of that species, in ANY way, under ANY circumstance. Kthx.

          • Nessie

            If a zygote is a person, than an identical twin is only half of a person.

          • lady_black

            And here, the key phrase is “individual.” An embryo or fetus is NOT an individual, and doesn’t become an individual until live birth.

          • fiona64

            This amounts to “The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true.”

            Sorry, but that dog don’t hunt.

          • fiona64

            A person is a human being.

            Correction: a person is a born entity.

            And stop using Merriam-Webster to justify your position. If you want to talk about legal matters, use Black’s or similar. http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Person.aspx

            Quote (emphasis added): An entity recognized by the law as separate and independent, with legal rights and existence including the ability to sue and be sued, to sign contracts, to receive gifts, to appear in court either by themselves or by lawyer and, generally, other powers incidental to the full expression of the entity in law.

            An embryo is NONE of those things.

        • Shan

          No. There is no “scientific record” for what a person is, not in any sense, i.e., ethical, moral, OR legal. Even if there were, in this discussion, personhood is a LEGAL construct which, if/when granted to fetuses, embryos, blastocysts and/or zygotes, results in (as the article pointed out) very bad outcomes for pregnant women, even ones who intend to give birth.

          Here’s an article study that was done on what’s been happening to pregnant women where there “fetal personhood” laws. It stops covering incidents after 2005, which is unfortunate because there have been so many MORE “personhood” laws enacted since then, and so many more instances of pregnant women being prosecuted under statues that were supposedly put in place to protect them.

          http://jhppl.dukejournals.org/content/38/2/299.full.pdf+html?sid=b0811f36-d4e4-4b51-a830-e175e6eee40c

        • refruits

          Wrong. As persons still don’t have rights to the bodies of other persons.

    • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

      70 percent of conceptions are not / do not become, persons. 42 percent of conceptions are not human life, only 30 percent of conceptions will produce a human baby at birth. That is the science…….. Any other belief is not science.
      The scientific fact is that until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype at birth, there is no human life. And the phenotype must be born alive. Why? Prior to birth the fetus has a fetal heart, fetal respiratory system, fetal digestive system and fetal brain. Those must all transform into human systems at birth or there is no human life.

      • Ethos

        “The scientific fact is that until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype at birth, there is no human life.”
        Would you mind citing your source for this claim?

        • Arekushieru

          That’s not what he said. He said there was no actual way to prove that a fetus is human life until it is born using conventional methods, rather than atypical, culturally privileged methods as ultrasounds and sonograms would be considered. It’s the same reason we don’t assign sex until one is born. Because it cannot be observably proven by the general population that a fetus fits the phenotype of one sex or another until it is born. This is why many feminists consider assigning sex to a fetus a patriarchal, misogynistic practice.

        • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

          I have discussed this numerous time. I am the author of that statement. So lucky you. You are entitled to any information you request. So what do you want. To be a human, one must have the human genotype and phenotype. Do you need that. To tell if it is human one must know for certain it has the correct phenotype, because the phenotype is hidden until birth one cannot know if the phenotype is human. And because it must have the correct genotype one cannot be certain for many years after birth. You have already been given the links that prove the phenotype is not revealed until birth. Do you need that again?
          Arekushieru has already explained the rest.

    • fiona64

      Personhood is not a scientific matter but a legal one. “Brady” was not a person.

      • lady_black

        As bad as I feel for this woman, “Brady” was not a person. And this personhood amendment isn’t the answer to anything.

      • Kathi J

        The Personhood folks lucked out when they found this woman, she probably has little understanding of what this amendment is all about, she’s just grieving for the child that never was.

  • Shan

    “citing a New York case in which a pregnant woman was convicted of manslaughter of her own child after being in a car accident.”

    I looked this up and found some more information that brings home the point of the article even harder than the fact that Jennifer Jorgensen was convicted and sentenced to 3 to 9 years in prison for the death of her baby. She also faced manslaughter charges for the elderly couple killed in the same crash. But she was acquitted.

    • lady_black

      THAT is disgusting. Pregnant women have a right to drive.

  • izzie123

    So if a woman is driving while pregnant or in a car with someone else driving and is in an accident she can be arrested and charged with murder or manslaughter. This sounds like another attempt to keep women home. If her Dr. tells her not to work and she has to work to provide for her other children and she loses her baby she will be charged and faces jail time. This is wrong on so many levels!!

    • lady_black

      There’s no legal duty to follow doctor’s orders.