Media Still Misstating Science on Ebola Transmission

Categories: Schutze

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This is the official dogma from The Dallas Morning News. It's wrong.

News media continue to present a picture of Ebola transmission that is significantly inaccurate by omission. They assert much more certainty than the science justifies. The version repeated like a mantra in most accounts -- only direct physical contact with an infectious person -- is wrong on its face and may be contributing to reduced vigilance.

What the science does say: direct physical contact with body fluids is the most common way and the most extensively documented way for the disease to travel. But science does not know that direct physical contact is the only way the disease can infect human beings. Scientists know the virus survives for significant periods of time outside the body, even dried on surfaces such as doorknobs and table tops. It is not known if a viable virus outside the body can infect a human being, because that research has not been done. But public health policy on decontamination assumes some risk, even if only at low levels, from so-called "environmental" (outside the body) Ebola virus.

A story in yesterday's Dallas Morning News by Seema Yasmin states as fact that, "There has to be direct contact with infected bodily fluids. Direct contact includes being within three feet of someone with Ebola who has symptoms of disease, because infectious droplets of saliva from a sneeze can travel that distance. The virus would have to pass through cuts or breaks in the skin or touch mucous membranes such as the insides of the mouth and nose or the eyes."

See also: Even the CDC Isn't Totally Sold on its Own Proclamations on How Ebola Is Transmitted

Another story in The Dallas Morning News today by Robert Wilonsky states that, "Ebola experts say that the illness can only be caught from contact with bodily fluids from someone ill with the virus."

A New York Times story today by Sabrina Tavernise says, "Ebola is one of the world's most lethal diseases, but is contagious only through contact with bodily fluids ..."

Those assurances simply are not supported by the science. A bulletin published this year by the Public Health Agency of Canada reports that Ebola virus is one of a family of viruses, called filoviruses, that "have been reported capable to survive for weeks in blood and can also survive on contaminated surfaces, particularly at low temperatures ..."

The same bulletin says, "There is also little known about how well filoviruses survive in liquids or on solid surfaces which is important in management of patients or samples that have been exposed to filoviruses."

The bulletin does not rule out infection from environmental virus. Instead it says, "A study on transmission of Ebola virus from fomites (surfaces) in an isolation ward concludes that the risk of transmission is low when recommended infection control guidelines for viral hemorrhagic fevers are followed."

An August 1, 2014, circular published by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is even more emphatic in stating that nobody knows if environmental virus can infect: "The role of the environment in transmission has not been established. Limited laboratory studies under favorable conditions indicate that Ebola virus can remain viable on solid surfaces, with concentrations falling slowly over several days."

Since early September, the CDC has been incrementally tweaking its own bulletins intended for the general public on the issue of transmission, slowly backing away from the initial mantra of transmission by direct physical contact only.

On September 9, the CDC was still saying, "The virus is spread through direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes) with a sick person's blood or body fluids (urine, saliva, feces, vomit and semen) (and) objects (such as needles) that have been contaminated with infected body fluids (or) infected animals."

On September 14 the CDC bulletin was revised to include transmission from handling or consumption of meat from game: "The virus is spread through direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes) with blood and body fluids (urine, feces, saliva, vomit and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola, or with objects (like needles) that have been contaminated with the virus. Ebola is not spread through the air or by water or, in general, by food; however, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats."

On September 22 the bulletin was revised again to include remarks on one of the most hotly debated of all transmission issues -- "aerosol" or transmission through air. The new version does not endorse aerosol transmission by free-floating viri, as with measles or flu, but it does suggest transmission by air if the virus is coated in a body fluid.

"Although coughing and sneezing are not common symptoms of Ebola, if a symptomatic patient with Ebola coughs or sneezes on someone, and saliva or mucus come into contact with that person's eyes, nose or mouth, these fluids may transmit the disease."

These incremental revisions all move in the same direction -- away from the strict doctrine of direct physical contact as the sole means of transmission. What if the public dogma on transmission were not "direct physical contact" with an infectious person only?

What if the statement sounded more like this:

Science knows that direct physical contact is the most common means of transmission, but science also knows the virus stays alive outside the body even on dried surfaces for hours or days. The ability of that environmental virus to infect a human being is unknown.

If that were the mantra -- basic knowledge but with appropriate scientifically justified caveats -- would nurses be less likely to rush into an isolation chamber with no protective coverings for their shoes, knowing those shoes might track environmental virus and that in removing those shoes later the nurses might be become infected?

Would sheriff's deputies be less likely to rush unprotected into the apartment of a known Ebola victim? Would a nurse who knew she might be infected be less likely to get on an airplane when she was already feeling sick?

Why would we continue to promulgate an abbreviated version of knowledge about transmission when the full version is right in front of us? Why do we prefer a version that minimizes even what is known and ignores what is not known?

Obviously the minimized version feels better. It sounds safer, less dangerous. How is that working out for us so far?

Some commenters below continue to assert there is no science to support transmission from surfaces. please see these two articles. Look for references to "fomites," science talk for surfaces.

I couldn't get the highlighting out of the first article, and it may actually blank out the important parts on your version of Scribd. If so, an early paragraph says:

"However, the source of infection remained unknown for 12 case-patients, which led to the suspicion that the virus was transmitted by airborne particles or fomites."

A concluding paragraph states:

"In fact one person in whom the disease developed was probably infected by contact with heavily infected fomites (patient 7) and many persons who had had a simple physical contact with a sick person did not become infected."

You can also find these articles here and here.

Ebola Hemorraghic by Schutze

CDC (9-30-2014) (1) by Schutze


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138 comments
riconnel8
riconnel8

I'm still trying to find in the Constitution where anything is stated that U.S. citizens should be protected from Ebola by the President or any agency.  This cry for protection seems like a very Liberal concept to me. 


Unless the Teabaggers and Libertarians want to say there shouldn't be any government response to this they need to stfu or understand that we need regulation.  Is that what you want to say....that we don't need government response?

noblefurrtexas
noblefurrtexas topcommenter

The Ebola, also known as Ebola hemorrhagic fever, is a viral disease caused by Ebola virus.  It is a seriously tenacious disease involving more and more organs as it take hold, and is quite often fatal. 

The most effective way to prevent contracting Ebola is a practice known in the military called "Barrier Prophylaxis".  That is, placing something in the way of the contagion area of someone affected to the virus cannot be transmitted. Those barriers include miles, transportation bans, isolation of patients, avoidance of those with ANY exposure to Ebola, avoidance of ANY surfaces touched by an Ebola patient, and certainly wearing barrier clothing, face masks and shied, head covering, gloves, smock, pants, and shoes - leaving no area of the skin exposed either DURING medical care, or when disrobing back to non-protective.

Military manuals suggest that Ebola is one of several diseases that is spread by accidents.  But, those accidents can include or prevent: 

1.  Not enough accurate information, or incorrect information

2.  Failures of notifying the public of current disease status, spread, and locations

3.  Frequent comprehensive news reports on the disease and its spread

4.  Paying strict attention to all quarantines

5.  Detection of the disease too late to render effective treatment

6.  Insufficient medical supplies to adequately treat the disease and contain its spread

7.   Mistaken diagnosis which leads to ineffective self-treatment, or the absence of medical treatments causing ineffective treatment/response ratios.


What is truly scary is an ineffective and ignorant President worried more about politics than preventing the spread of the disease. 


In a public health criris, there is no room for political correctness, OSHA, HIPAA regulations, or other social or governmental niceties.  The health of the community is much more important than someone being offended!

Guy_Incognito
Guy_Incognito

"Media Still Misstating Science on Ebola Transmission" reads the headline in an article in which a media member misstates the science on Ebola transmission.





Sotiredofitall
Sotiredofitall topcommenter

Just announced - we can all rest easy, there's a Washington lawyer on the case: 


"President Barack Obama is naming Ron Klain, a former chief of staff to Vice President Joe Biden and a trusted adviser at the Obama White House, as the point man on the U.S. government's response to the Ebola crisis. He's a long-time Democratic operative"

RickShit4BrainzPerry
RickShit4BrainzPerry

Once again, Dallas is the laughing stock of the world for being a city full or arrogant idiotic rednecks.  One can only hope they will stumble upon this blog so they will be able to determine that on occasion the media gets it right.




buckbucky
buckbucky

What is this the Ebola Observer?

Sotiredofitall
Sotiredofitall topcommenter

"The practice of quarantine—the separation of the diseased from the healthy—has been around a long time. As early as the writing of the Old Testament, for instance, rules existed for isolating lepers. It wasn't until the Black Death of the 14th century, however, that Venice established the first formal system of quarantine, requiring ships to lay at anchor for 40 days before landing. "

dfw_maverick
dfw_maverick

The CDC doesn't seem to be doing enough to stop the spread of Ebola, such as travel bans, but spends its efforts on trying to calm the public.

Candy Evans
Candy Evans

This is not a wimpy virus. It lives in male sperm for up to three months after a patient is cured.  Absolutely this is extremely serious, and health care workers are in the line of fire. And Jim is right - -the information from the CDC continues to dribble in and then change which is extremely frustrating to physicians. CDC should have known that taking temperatures at airports would not keep Ebola out of the US. I hope this jolts us enough to stop cut backs for hospitals and physicians that have come through the ACA -- medicare rates and some 40% cuts to hospitals. But I do think a temporary ban on travel out of the afflicted countries is in order, at least until we can set up a few designated hospitals to care for Ebola:

http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/content/QUA-309395/Ebola-A-Call-for-Designated-Hospitals##

WellHmmmmm
WellHmmmmm

From published research, it is not airborne ... Yet. The problem is the virus genetically modifies as it spreads, but is supposedly slow in its modification process. The concern is if it continues spreading it can modify into an airborne virus. No one knows how long that will take, except that it can potentially happen. So it has to be stopped from spreading. Also, the victim becomes more contagious as a person's health deteriorates -- as the virus takes over the victim's body.

One blank line for me is some literature says that some persons close to very sick victims in their home do not contract the virus. We know that a cured victim has antibodies to Ebola for several years after being cured -- which is why Dr. brantley's donated plasma has worked in helping victims. Could it be that these exposed persons did not contract the virus because they were previously exposed to one of the strains rendering them immune for a couple of years?

Lots of questions, like everyone, but most important is what kills the virus: Clorox, heat to 140 degrees, and over 70% alcohol hand sanitizer. Continuously wash your hands, and avoid being around sick people unless you use adequate protective equipment.

I really wish the finger pointing would stop, and shift the focus on the real task of stopping the spread of this.

greenvillite
greenvillite

Nice to see a journalist take a responsible attitude on this subject. Think you could get some of the politicians and beaurocrats to do the same?

Djrjdkskdjfks
Djrjdkskdjfks

Sad to see Jim become the Jenny McCarthy of the Ebola scare. "I got my medical education from google U".

WhoisJohnGalt
WhoisJohnGalt

The Dallas Observer lecturing on science is about as reliable and intelligently thought-out as USA Today readership voting Dallas the best skyline in the *world*.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

You got it right in that very first paragraph - that the version you've been repeating like a mantra isn't completely accurate. But that mistake is yours, not the government's.

The government guidelines for infections disease control are extensive - far beyond the one-liners you throw out there, like some kind of bad act at a comedy club.

Perhaps you should stick with heckling politicians, and leave the science-heavy articles to someone younger and smarter.

OakParkStudio
OakParkStudio

Jim, I tend to see the wisdom in much of what you write…but this post feels awfully similar to the diatribe you went off on when Dallas was aerial Mosquito spraying awhile back…killing beneficial insects, flowers and plants and embryos in-utero…oh and I think Tinkerbell was in there too as a possible victim according to your reportage.


Engaging in your "Magical Thinking" whether based on internet dither and scientist's musings is neither worthwhile to the Ebola effort or helpful or constructive to clear thinking adults and children. Makes for a great blog post to whip up comments, though. Fear is indeed primeval…that part of our lizard brain is easy to light up.


If Ebola were catchy when airborne or on fomites…love that word…we'd be seeing far greater infection rates over the years than we have now witnessed. That part of the science and the viruses history is certain. Decades worth of it actually.


During my daily routine, I'm not consuming bush meat, sharing my mattress with an Ebola patient or licking one after I stumble into it at NorthPark. Should I come across piles of fresh vomit, experience a commuter with explosive diarrhea, blood soaked handrails or dripping semen splotches on the ceiling…I will need to seek therapy for dissociative disorder because I must be wandering through Sierra Leone and not Dallas.


Luckily, most Ebola patients don't feel much like hanging out at Krispy Kreme. I find it interesting the nurses fell victim…but I understand the level of contact they had with the fluids or were in close proximity of. What I find interesting is that the quarantined family members seem to be doing just fine and they were sleeping on Ebola mattresses and in close contact with blood, feces and vomit without protective gear…or at least that is the way it looks so far for them…let us hope.


So, unless and until we start to see the puzzling cases where the dots won't connect…then I feel sure we aren't going to see a Zombie Apocalypse with Bleeding out of their Eyes Ebola victims wandering across the fake McDonald's suspension Bridge.


JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

No kidding. " We hate government! Hey, where's the damn government when we need it?"

noblefurrtexas
noblefurrtexas topcommenter

@Guy_Incognito You will find much of the media is parroting what government has told them; and, much of that information is incorrect or very speculative - two sides of the same coin in Public Health. 


Of course, your President thinks the solution is appointing an Ebola Czar who is a lawyer, a political hack, a Solyndra benefactor, and utterly without medical or public health experience. 


The most effective way to prevent the spread of Ebola (a/k/a Ebola hemorrhagic fever ) is "Barrier Prophylaxis".


There is no room in a public health crisis for political correctness, HIPAA, political considerations, or decisions/solutions based on popularity instead of known effectiveness. 


This is why Obama is the wrong man for the job.  If you lead from behind in a public health crisis, you're gonna need a lot of showers and cologne.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@JimSX 

Personally, I'm glad to see reporters like Jim and Heather complaining that the government officials don't take them seriously.  It means that things are working the way they should.


Sotiredofitall
Sotiredofitall topcommenter

@JimSX  "Absurdities aside, this is a serious problem, and it is being handled by profoundly unserious people."

GriffManstrong
GriffManstrong

@dfw_maverick


What travel would we ban, exactly? There are no flights directly from Liberia, Guinea, or Ghana directly to the United States. So that leaves travel visas, do we also ban travel TO those countries? What about aid workers and missionaries who are on the front lines fighting to keep the disease from becoming a pandemic. Do we also stop aid flights? what about the 3,000 American servicemen over there. 


Reading some of these comments is like listening to WBAP. Repetitive and not very informed.

RickShit4BrainzPerry
RickShit4BrainzPerry

@Candy Evans  I knew I wouldn't have to look far to find someone here blaming this on Obamacare.  Do you have the slightest concept what would be involved, at this point, in creating a ban on travel? The amount of money involved in a knee jerk reaction like that would far out weight any benefits.  THAT would create an world wide hysteria.  And once we start this costly ban, who is going to be responsible for the nuts and bolts.   Other human beings, that make mistakes as we all do.   Like the ones at Presby.  This might have been able to be nipped in the bud if Presbyterian Hospital would NOT have sent a walking talking virus home.     Now please tell me how ACA had any effect on creating a virus.  


ivyhall
ivyhall

@Candy Evans Hmmm seems like there is plenty of evidence that the current Hospital administrative paradigm is not working out too well.  THR is a conglomeration of once independent fairly profitable to economically stressed local hospitals.  Unlike private and independent facilities as well as non institutionally employed physicians, these "for profits" and "non for profits" have not experienced any Medicare cuts , EVER( progressive cuts in Medicare re-reimbursements to physicians and independent outpatient facilities have been going on since the early 1990s).  The CEO of THR makes a $5.9 million dollar salary annually.  It would have been nice if there could have been some "trickle down" to provide the nursing services with PROPER protective gear for deadly infectious diseases.Combine that with the on going nasty  THR stealth campaign against more resourceful (and under re-imbursed) competitors in the community and I think that you will find very little local sympathy for the THR big wigs.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@WellHmmmmm Your post and one other makes the most sense to me.  This is the issue you mentioned that I would like to see the CDC comment on:


"Could it be that these exposed persons did not contract the virus because they were previously exposed to one of the strains rendering them immune for a couple of years?"

Two summers ago I had neurological symptoms of West Nile.  The city has a test site almost outside my back door.  West Nile continues to be detected and they have told me we have a large number of mosquitoes in the area.  This summer was horrible for bites and I can only conclude that I've built up some immunity. 


Your theory makes perfect sense to me.  And thanks for the over 70% alcohol sanitizer tip.  I'm copying, pasting and sending your comment on to others.

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@OakParkStudio And in fact, OakPark, the nurses did not observe the protocols recommended by the CDC that, we're now informed, were clearly posted on a bulletin board.

You raise a question neither Jim nor any of the other Ebolasterics here have bothered to address, so far: If the means of transmission are such a mystery, if it's so readily transmitted, if we're all in danger, where are the other victims?

JFPO
JFPO

All Jim did was point out the media isn't telling us everything and used the CDC's own material as backup. In your diatribe, you don't point out anything specific he said as being inaccurate, probably because there isn't anything to point out.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

I just happen to be a very pro-Obama person, so I can't go with you to that conclusion. I tend to think the problem here is sort of cultural. The mediatoids and the elected officlals alike believe they are heroic when they minimize risk and danger, even art the cost of honesty. They don't understand that Ebolaphobia is greatly fueled by the public's lack of trust in them, which is fueled by the public's realization they all have their thumbs on the scale. Americans have always been smart skeptical people, pretty enured to tough challenge, unlikely to panic, but deeply suspicious of people who strike authoritarian poses and then tell fibs.

noblefurrtexas
noblefurrtexas topcommenter

@bvckvs @JimSX I'm glad you think government knows what it's doing.  It must be a source of great mirth for you. 


But, the fact is that the private sector is way ahead of the government, and the government is spinning information to keep Obama from looking much much worse than Bush.  Katrina looks like child's play compared to the mistakes on Ebola in America. 


Obama's legacy will be utter incompetence, lack of seriousness, ignorance, and wrong-headed goals...if he HAS any goals other than golf.

noblefurrtexas
noblefurrtexas topcommenter

@RickShit4BrainzPerry @Candy Evans You haven't a clue what you're talking about, and wrong as Hell.....yet again. 


A travel ban is easy to establish and enforce.  The government contacts the sources of travel, gives them information on the ban, and gets the travel ban information to both the foreign embassies involved here in Washington, at the UN, and through the American Embassies in the countries involved. 


Neither you nor Obama know jack about public health.  Otherwise, you wouldn't have made such an utterly ignorant and untrue statement. 


Generally, outbreaks such as this are the fault of the country of departure, and their failures to accurately screen for disease and practice Barrier Prophylaxis - especially knowing they have an Ebola outbreak (or pandemic). 

Obama is worried about his international reputation instead of protecting the American people.  He should be impeached, convicted, tried in federal court, and removed from office. He's a disaster. 

If you don't like that; TOUGH. 



Candy Evans
Candy Evans

@RickShit4BrainzPerry @Candy Evans Unfortunately, you would have to be a player in the world of medicine to understand. The ACA turned medicine into a more corporate, fiscal-centered environment as reimbursements have been slashed. As a result we have hospitalists and physicians jamming in more patients to cover increasing expenses. We have lower-level, lower paid employees staffing hospitals. The ERs are still used as clinics by those who did not have primary care physicians. The only ones who benefitted from the ACA are insurance companies, makers of electronic medical records software, and some hospital administrators. While a few patients have benefitted -- no more exclusion for pre-existing conditions -- the system is getting worse, and costing everyone more for less care. Of course this patient was not covered by the ACA since he wasn't even a US citizen, like many ER patients. You are right: perhaps I should blame US immigration policy as much as the ACA. Agreed that Presbyterian screwed up by not admitting him the first time and DEMANDING the CDC get their lazy butt down to Dallas and take over patient care. But Ebola in Dallas? Lots more than Ebola can hit us, and when we strip-mine medicine as we have, incompetent care will result. 

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@RickShit4BrainzPerry @Candy Evans Blaming the Ebola blunders on ACA makes about as much sense as this gem, posted in this thread for no apparent reason other than to point out the small-minded bigotry of the one posting it:


"Once again, Dallas is the laughing stock of the world for being a city full or arrogant idiotic rednecks.  One can only hope they will stumble upon this blog so they will be able to determine that on occasion the media gets it right." --RS4BP

Candy Evans
Candy Evans

@ivyhall @Candy Evans there have been significant cuts, if not from Medicare, elsewhere. But you are spot on about the CEO salaries across health care. Couldn't agree more.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@bmarvel @OakParkStudio 

re:  "so far: If the means of transmission are such a mystery, if it's so readily transmitted, if we're all in danger, where are the other victims? "

The operative phrase here is "if it's so readily transmitted".  In truth, it's not so readily transmitted as Jim would have you believe.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@JFPO 

His info on the guidelines was inaccurate.  He took volumes upon volumes of government guidelines on infections disease control and dumbed it down into one, bad piece of information - and then complained about the media (him) putting out bad info.

It's wildly ironic... hypocritical even... for someone in the media who puts out as much bad info as Jim has on this issue, complaining that people in the media are putting out bad info.


JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

@JFPO OakParkStudio's argument mentions West Nile and aerial spraying -- interesting because his take here is very much what the Obedient Ones argue in that instance as well. It's all very ad hominem, you're Tinker Belle if you question Big Chem and so on. But, as you note, no science or specifics from him. The science does not say, nor did I say, that people can catch Ebola from counter tops. It says Ebola can live on counter tops and  science does not know if that virus can infect. OakParkStudio ignores the fact that we have no idea how these two nurses were infected. I'm not saying people should panic because their they  might die from counter tops.I am saying that government agencies and the media should not chop off the end of the truth and show only the part that makes us feel better.  

noblefurrtexas
noblefurrtexas topcommenter

@JimSX I agree with everything you said with the exception of Obama.  I tend to judge presidents by what they do and accomplish, instead of what they "say" and "hope" to accomplish. 


I studied Obama when he was first elected to the Illinois State Senate with no experience, and based solely on his investigating his opponents and forcing them out of the election. 


Then, what does Obama do?  He seals all of his records, including birth certificate, passport and travel documents, visas, all school records in all grades, college records, and law school records.  Then, when he is sworn in, he declares an executive decision to make ANY research into his background or attempts to unseal his records a federal felony. Amongst my other problems with him are the facts that he's very dishonest, literally lies to escape accountability, and seems to enjoy the perks of the presidency more than the leadership opportunity. 


There's more, but that explains several reasons why I no longer like or trust him.

Guest
Guest

@dfw_maverick @GriffManstrong But again, do you say that American citizens can't go? You can't stop an American from coming home. What about a citizen of the UK who has been in Liberia who then travels to the US?


The travel ban idea is completely unworkable.

noblefurrtexas
noblefurrtexas topcommenter

@Candy Evans @RickShit4BrainzPerry I couldn't agree more. Obama took the finest healthcare system in the world, and not only trashed it, but also raised the costs of medical care by leaps and bounds.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/latest-columns/20141016-heather-wilhelm-government-under-reaction-to-ebola-is-condescending-and-dangerous.

Nowhere have I said that the virus is "readily transmitted." What I have said is that the picture of transmission presented by CDC inititally was an incomplete picture of the science. If you want to debate me, you need to explain why the authorities should provide an incomplete version of the known science to the public. As an op ed writer in the Morning News observes this morning, (link above)', the American public dealt with 9/11 calmly and without panic. I don't think Americans panic in the face of full truth, but I do think it scares people to lie to appear to be misleading them.

JFPO
JFPO

He pointed out how the CDC has been changing its own story over the last couple if months. Where specifically (yes, be specific) is he actually wrong?

JFPO
JFPO

I get your point entirely and don't understand people accusing you of fear mongering. Being fed bad information on top of mind blowing incompetence will induce more panic than honesty ever could.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@JimSX 

I am saying that government agencies and the media should not chop off the end of the truth and show only the part that makes us feel better. 

I'm not so sure you are right with this observation.

There are times when more information and disclosure are positve and good.

there are times when providing more information, especially information that is difficult to process, doesn't contribute towards a postive response.

I'm not advocating deception or distortion. Yet the public response does need to be considered, after all you've got to agree the public as a whole is reactive.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@JimSX Don't worry Jim, Buckus and Marvel think you're talking out of your ass.  Those two previously felt that was their exclusive territory.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@JimSX 

re:  " If you want to debate me, you need to explain why the authorities should provide an incomplete version of the known science to the public"

You didn't get a med school education from them because they're not a medical school, and you're not a medical student.

re:  "it scares people to lie to appear to be misleading them."
They didn't scare you; you scared yourself.  They didn't mislead you - you just failed to follow what was being said.

It's not their fault that you don't understand the science.  A responsible journalist would have educated himself by interviewing health officials and educators - instead of just sitting on his ass, writing about how confused he is by what he sees on his TV.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@JFPO 

No, I'm not going to analyze any crazy-assed libertarian conspiracy theories for you. 

If that just further plays into some paranoid delusion about government scientists trying to put one over on you, so be it.


mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

I'm just wondering what "Oxycontic" means. Nothing like making up new vocabulary....

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@RTGolden1 @JimSX That's entirely possible, Golden. (More likely about Buckus than about me, but I may have been guilty frlom time to time.) 

But, in this case, Jim's shaky grasp of science has led him, and many of his readers, down a blind alley, where scarey but largely imaginary monsters lurk. 

He has confused contact with body fluidswith contact with bodies. The CDC has consistently warned against the former; Jim imagines somehow that the agency is warning only about the latter. That, and he seems to have some confusion over "wet"and "dry" viruses and how viruses are transmitted.

I have in the past had great respect for Jim's reporting and writing. When he's been right, nobody in the city could touch him. But every now and then he's wrong, and when he's wrong he's really wrong. And he's wrong, now. Wrong in his understanding of the real danger, wrong in diverting attention to what may turn out to be a real public health emergency, and wrong in stirring up baseless fears among readers who know even less about science than he does. He's fanning the worse anti-government sentiments of some of his less rational fans and pandering to the general hysteria over Ebola.

Jim has a deep and usually informed conscience. So I'm sure he honestly believes that he's writing what needs to be written. But he writes from the hip, fast-draw style. And whereas he has his sources -- the people who whisper  stuff in his ear that may or may not be true -- he sometimes neglects the kind of research that would keep him tethered to the real world. He goes with his gut. Which is to say he ends up talking out of his ass. 

JFPO
JFPO

So you have nothing specific, got it. You can save your Libertarian government conspiracies rants for others on this on this board...I'm not one if them.

JustSaying
JustSaying

@mavdog  I assume he means dopey or drugged out. I have taken oxycontin before and I quite enjoyed it. To me being oxycontic was like getting blown on a cloud of pillows.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@bmarvel @RTGolden1 @JimSX You could be right about the science this time BM.  Then again, you could be wrong (as the science, per the actual scientists studying it, is far from settled).  And being wrong in this case could mean being dead wrong.

A little paranoia is not a bad thing, it tends to make people slow down and actually consider things they are doing and possible consequences of those things.  Had the nurses been a little more paranoid, they may have been more careful, regardless of THR's policies and preparations, or lack thereof.

History teaches us that, when dealing with substantial unknowns, like the scenarios Jim has brought up, preparing for a worst case incident is the wisest course of action.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@JFPO 

It's funny when libertarian types get all fussy and grumpy when they can't get someone to dive into their conspiracy theories with them.


bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@RTGolden1 @bmarvel @JimSX Here's where "a little paranoia" gets you, Golden:

The dean of Syracuse Universiity Journalism School (!??) disinvited a noted Washington Post photojournalist from speaking at the school because he had been covering the Ebola crisis in Africa. She explained "...SU's controversial decision to disinvite Michel du Cille, of The Washington Post, to a conference because of fears he might transmit Ebola after covering the crisis in Liberia. du Cille has been back in the United States for 21 days, is symptom free and there is no indication he contracted the virus."

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@RTGolden1 @bmarvel @JimSX A "little paranoia" is what causes people to trample each other to death when someone yells "fire" in a crowded theater. It sends teachers home for 21 days in Maine because they overnighted at a Dallas hotel. It leads parents to keep their kids home from school because someone else's kid lives in the same block with someone who rode in a plane that once carried an Ebola victim.

Paranoia would not have helped Presby's nurses. Reading and heeding CDC protocols would have. History teaches us that a few facts outweigh weeks of fear-mongering journalism and blog-hysteria. But given the state of science education and the general anti-science mood these days, I'm not surprised at what has happened.

I'm not 100 percent sure yet whether I'm right, Golden Time will tell. (Where are all the other Dallas Ebola cases?) But I know enough about science to know that Jim is wrong.

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