We Did Good on Ebola. It's the Spin that Got Us.

Categories: Schutze

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Hoping it's not bad luck to say this so soon, knocking on wood, rubbing my figurative rabbit's foot (my wife won't let me carry a real one), but I think this city and maybe even the nation deserve praise for overwhelming equanimity in the face of the first American Ebola cases. What the response so far shows is that we handle the truth a lot better than we do lies, and we tend to have real respect for real doctors as opposed to spin doctors.

Sure, there has been some flat-out goofiness, as in the school district in Maine that sent a teacher into quarantine because she had attended a conference in Dallas. But people in Maine are famously xenophobic anyway. Just like Texans.

Closer to home, we have our own Highland Park school district where school nurses had to urge students and teachers not to oppress the elementary school daughter of Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins for being the offspring of a person who had been in close physical proximity with the asymptomatic relatives of an Ebola victim. But I don't have to explain that one, do I? It's the Park Cities, where everything and all of life are summed up in one word -- bubble.

See also: Highland Park ISD Wants Parents to Know They Are Safe From Clay Jenkins and His Family

And in fact some of the reactions being dubbed now as panic or crazy ought to be viewed in light of the duplicity of officials when Ebola first arrived here. It's really not so crazy that some Dallas-area suburban school districts shut down schools when they found out someone connected with a school had been on the same plane with Amber Vinson, the famous flying Ebola nurse.

To put that in context we need to go back to the serial deceptions foisted on the public by Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital, followed by disturbing charges from their own nursing staff that they were being scapegoated by corporate spin-doctors.

See also: Contradictions, Mistakes and Bullshit Are What Worry Us in Ebola Response

And let's not forget the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which started out claiming there was zero chance of Ebola spreading beyond Patient Zero. It's gratifying, at least, to see Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, telling ABC News Sunday that maybe the initial promises were part of the problem: "We always get caught," Fauci said, "when we say zero. Nothing is zero."

Somebody needs to put that one on the wall. Only Patient Zero was zero. From now on, no more zero.

See also: CDC Boss Frieden, "That Is Not in the Cards"

It should be understandable that people reacted with fear and a lack of trust when they found out they were being fed a bunch of spin-lines instead of truth. The New York Times today quotes a professor of "decision sciences," Baruch Fischhoff at Carnegie Mellon, as saying trust has two equally essential elements.

"One is competence and one is honesty," he told the Times. "The hospital in Dallas changed its story three times. So while most people know there are very few cases and this is not an easily transmissible virus, they also know the human system for managing this is imperfect, and they don't know whether they are getting the straight story about it."

Another element that certainly helped drive some of the more rash reactions was a general impression, far from wrong, that nobody was in charge. At certain key points I slapped my forehead and told myself, "OK, that's it, that's the very bottom. An un-cleared Ebola-exposed person with an elevated temperature gets on an airplane anyway. It can't get worse than that."

Then, of course, I made the mistake of looking at my iPad and learned there was an un-cleared Ebola-exposed person on a cruise ship. That was flat-out heebie-jeebies for me. Never say never. I started wondering if I was making it worse by slapping my forehead.

In fact given the full reality and all that we have been through since this began, everybody deserves a letter grade of A+ for not truly panicking. We do know what real panic is, right? Everybody has seen a zombie movie by now.

See also: Maine Now Quarantining People for Setting Foot in Dallas

What we did was maybe get appropriately nervous, given the level of sheer incompetence and duplicity coming at us from high quarters. But panic? No way. If you want to see real panic on my own part, tell me the CDC is sending someone to live in my house. That's when I strap bags of canned goods to my bicycle and try to make it to Mexico.

The lesson in the Ebola story so far is that Ebola itself didn't upset people half as much as corporate spin-doctors and Big Brother politicians who treated us as if we were gullible children. I don't know where people get the idea we're all a bunch of fraidy-cats and sissies who have to be handled with kid gloves. Our entire history shows we can handle very tough challenges, as long as we know what's really going on.

In 1840 in volume two of his great work, Democracy in America, Alexis de Tocqueville, the Frenchman who came to see what we were all about, summed up the typical American as, "in short, a highly civilized being, who consents, for a time, to inhabit the backwoods, and who penetrates into the wilds of the New World with the Bible, an ax, and a file of newspapers."

Worth keeping in mind.


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152 comments
bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

I like the way Jim complains that nobody was in charge, even though there were many people in charge. The Republicans had the same complaint, so to appease them, Obama appointed a lawyer to be the "drug czar" - an unofficial position with no authority to compel anyone to do or say anything and no ability to influence policy making.

We've been waiting for years for Republicans to confirm an appointee as Surgeon General of the US - but their obsession with abortion overwhelms any desire to have a Surgeon General.  (Jim either didn't know about that, or didn't care, or was just having fun behaving as badly as the Republicans. It's hard to tell which one.)

In science, it's rare to put one man in charge - because it's not driven solely by personality - it's driven primarily by physics, math, engineering, etc. 

It's only when dim-witted politicians or uninformed reporters come along that they ever need such a figurehead - not to promote the science, but rather to deal with the barrage of stupid questions.


DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

Ebola = God's Will !!


Paaaahraize Jaaaayzus !!


.

roo_ster
roo_ster

The lengths some folk will go to to excuse malign incompetence by federal bureaucritters is very sad. Almost like they are aparatchik groupies just dying to give some functionary a hummer in a toilet stall on the way to their next briefing. Yeah i am looking at you bmarvel and mavdog. Tpfkp may have been ready to break out the nitrile gloves and respirator but you all damn near wore out your knee pads servicing those in power.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

It's really not so crazy that some Dallas-area suburban school districts shut down schools when they found out someone connected with a school had been on the same plane with Amber Vinson, the famous flying Ebola nurse.

actually that is crazy. crazy and ignorant.

Another element that certainly helped drive some of the more rash reactions was a general impression, far from wrong, that nobody was in charge

yes, this is a major problem in how the current healthcare provider system is set up. anybody heard from the TX Department of State Health Services? you know, the department that is responsible for hospitals? For setting a TX resident in quarantine? They've been MIA on this.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

I'd hold off on declaring Mission Accomplished just yet, or irritating a casting call for EBOLAH! the movie.

For you see, we still have a bit of a problem.  We've left our flank open.

The WHO on 8/28 forecast the total cases in West Africa at 20,000 before it ebbs.. As of 10/14 there have been about 9,200 suspected and 5,000 confirmed, resulting in 2,800 deaths.

Duncan flew in on a visa showing no symptoms and no fever, that one guy infected two and quarantined 148.  It took a rotation of 4 in suits per hour 24/7 to evacuate up to 5 liters of liquid and dispose of all the trash throw-off.  That's where those 38 and 75 (med personnel) came from.

We aren't banning entries from those plague nations and they are still on the little end of their epidemic.

The number crunchers at this Liberal tank say it could top 100,000 in Liberia alone.

http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/08/disease-modelers-project-rapidly-rising-toll-ebola

And these projections get A LOT worse, depending upon which bunch of Ivory Tower types you choose to read.

And the most "challenging" scenario to America and Texas in particular, is if this contagion gets a foothold in Central America.

I think you can ask the American Indian what the effect is of uncontrolled immigration by those who carry diseases we have no defense against.

So maybe a little widespread panic might just be in order to motivate a bit of contiional and temporary travel bans, with a 21-day quarantine ala Ellis Island to boot.  

After all, that's what Ellis Island was for - to detain and quarantine the sick on an island to either send back or clear the affliction.


bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

I read this with an almost surreal sense of dislocation. "We" did not do good at all on Ebola. And you did awful. I pray that you'll go back to writing about stuff -- some of it, anyway -- that you actually know about.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@bvckvs 1) Obama didn't appoint a drug czar for Ebola, he appointed an ebola czar.  Contrary to what you may have cooked up in your mind, Ebola is not a street savvy marketing name for a designer drug - yet.


2) When there are too many people in charge, there is effectively no one in charge.  Since President Obama seemed disinterested in being in charge, he had to appoint someone to shoulder blame and responsibility.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@bvckvs We've been waiting for years for Republicans to confirm an appointee as Surgeon General of the US - but their obsession with abortion overwhelms any desire to have a Surgeon General. 


Right. Harry Reid won't even put it to a vote, but it's Republicans that are blocking it.


The president keeps nominating people that he knows (or at least should know if he is halfway intelligent) that Republicans won't vote to confirm, and that makes it the Republicans' fault that he won't nominate someone in the middle.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@bvckvs

The Republicans had the same complaint, so to appease them, Obama appointed a lawyer to be the "drug czar"

The position was already filled by Nicole Lurie:

"Her mission, according to the HHS website, is "to lead the nation in preventing, responding to and recovering from the adverse health effects of public health emergencies."

Apparently, she went AWOL, or was not a shrewd democrat operative lawyer/crook - which is what the admin needs now.

The SG nomination is controversial nor held up for "years" because he's a half-assed, anti-gun dude whose qualifications are his mastery of Twitter, and that he was a major player in "Doctors For Obama". It has nothing to do with abortion ( though we can assume he is pro-abortion).

When you lambaste someone for inaccuracy, try to be at least somewhat accurate - unless of course you're just lonely.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@Donk

Are you implying God is racist?

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@roo_ster 

that's odd, for I was just thinking about how some people are completely blind to the failures of Presby, and the Texas Health Services Dept., and in their ignorance try and point their finger at the CDC as the party to blame..

your imagery tells us way more than we need to know about the focus of your thoughts.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@mavdog

Give 'em a break.

It was their first case.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@holmantx Under the WHO numbers, we've got about a 5% chance that one of the ones exposed is still incubating.


So, we're hoping we don't roll a fumble on the D20 before we get to 42 days.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@bmarvel

Seems to me that Schutze provided some pretty clear info, and considering how sloppy the CDC was with deadly "protocols" and ridiculous conflicting messages, it may be that agency knows less than Jim.

bvckvs
bvckvs topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @bvckvs 

Yeah, I'm not going to debate Republican spin with you.  If you want to wallow in Fox news crap, go right ahead.  I'm better than that.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

The SG nomination is controversial nor held up for "years" because he's a half-assed, anti-gun dude whose qualifications are his mastery of Twitter, and that he was a major player in "Doctors For Obama".

"half assed"?? the guy has a stellar record of academic achievement. Dr. Murthy is a highly qualified healthcare professional.

Dr. Murthy has been slammed by the NRA for describing guns and gun violence as a "healthcare issue".

Abortion has nothing to do with the opposition to the nomination. Nor is the lack of a Surgeon General, as there is an acting SG, have anything to do with the government's response to Ebola.

I know to the NRA any conversation about guns should be limited to only approved statements such as "guns are a sacred right" and "the 2nd Amendment is absolute", yet the comment by Dr. Murthy is not that crazy nor outlandish.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@mavdog @roo_ster You cannot relieve the CDC of blame, for "preventing the spread of infectious disease from outside US borders" is right smack dab in their lap.  They have the power and authority to impose travel restrictions and bans.

If there is no Duncan in Texas, there's no ebola in TX and no failures at Presby and THS.  Presby and THS had many failures in their handling of the situation, but what one has to keep in mind is that Presby wasn't then and isn't now equipped to handle a level 4 biohazard, and they shouldn't have been expected to.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@holmantx

It's hard to get cousin Pookie off the couch.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

Makes you wonder what the reaction is going to be when another missile splashes down someplace in the heartland.  A dirty bomb.

Spin the wheel.  The odds are geometrically increasing that another Duncan will bolt to America only to show up at a hospital sick as a dog.

To my knowledge, there is no "protocol" in place to intercept somebody who is infected but shows no signs at our Ports of Entry.

Why are we playing Russian Roulette?

Hard

Left 

Ideology

What else can it be?

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@TheRuddSki Great, Ruddski. Next time you or someone you love comes down with some dreadful disease, go to Schutze for treatment.

CDC's protocols were more than adequate (and properly displayed), had anybody at Presby thought to observe them early enough. Had the hospital provided its nurses with gowns that fastened securely in back, booties for their shoes, secure fastenings for their sleeves, and covering that included, not just their eyes, nose and mouth but the entire face and neck area, this story would have ended with Duncan's death and Jim and the rest of us would have had little to flap our gums about. Had the hospital admitted Duncan on his first appearance -- recent arrival from Liberia, high temperature, stomach pains, all mentioned in various CDC warnings -- we wouldn't be having this blog-chatter.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@bvckvs

What an elegant way to throw in the towel.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@RTGolden1 

You cannot relieve the CDC of blame, for "preventing the spread of infectious disease from outside US borders" is right smack dab in their lap. They have the power and authority to impose travel restrictions and bans.

authority limited to points of entry or travel between states.

JFPO
JFPO

You type pretty well for a guy in a Hazmat suit.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@bmarvel

CDC's protocols were more than adequate (and properly displayed),

Nope, they were clearly wrong, I posted the link. They were disappeared for a reason.

Jim did a good job of reporting known facts, that's his job. Why you're upset about it is a mystery I'm not interested in solving.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@JimSX

No tongue. Just a pat on the back, from a distance, with no neck area exposed.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@holmantx

No juice us, no piece.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@JFPO

Protocol, my man.  Just follow protocol.

Unlike Pham and Vinson, according to the CDC.

maybe we should stop issuing tourist visas to Liberians for awhile?

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@JimSX @bmarvel @TheRuddSki Every one of them, Jim, points back to a failure at Presby, NOT at the CDC.

But attacking CDC fits into your carefully cultivated image as an afflicter of the Big Guy, whether the Big Guy deserves it or not. Sometimes it results in memorable journalism. Here you just got it wrong -- why not admit that and move on? And in getting it wrong you pandered to the worse instincts of your readers, the anti-government crowd, the Obama hysterics, the foil-hat people.

Make you a bet, Jim: Five years from now re-read your Ebola coveraqe. If it doesn't make you at least wince, if not shudder, I'll buy you dinner, restaurant your choice.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

These are not the original guidelines which I posted here days ago, which the CDC quietly removed after it was pointed out that they would spread infection.

Good effort though.

JimSX
JimSX topcommenter

Bill, I totally missed that this was about Obama. I am 100 percent Obama loyal. I thought it was about a virus. Next time spell it out for me so I'll get it and not stub my toe like this. Obama good = CDC good = somebody else bad. Got it.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

those were up weeks ago, when this first came down.

failure on your part.

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@JimSX  " I totally missed that this was about Obama"

I suspected as much, Jim.  You really need to read the comments posted on your columns. These are the people cheering on your attacks on the CDC. The ones who agree with you.

But, Jim, did you get the blog from Scientific American I forwarded to you? The doctor, an expert on infectious diseases, has some interesting things to say about CDC and about Presby's handling of this and about the Ebolapanic epidemic. (As I recall, you have been saying that panic is not at all bad thing.) She also has some curt words for Homeland Security.

When you've messed up as badly as you have on this story, Jim, I just think it looks weird to congratulate yourself. ("We did good") Almost like losing a war, pulling out. and declaring victory. (I make no necessary connection with any actual historical war, here. It's just a simile.)

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

The PDF I'm referencing was removed less than a week ago.

Because it was deadly wrong.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@bmarvel @JimSX " I totally missed that this was about Obama"

I suspected as much, Jim.  You really need to read the comments posted on your columns. These are the people cheering on your attacks on the CDC. The ones who agree with you.


And you really need to read what we were writing before Jan 2009.  The message isn't that Obama sucks.  The message is that government sucks.


When we said it before Jan 2009, you nodded sagely, thinking that we were talking about GWB.  When we said it Jan 29, 2009, you went apoplectic thinking we were talking about Obama.  Through it all, we were talking about the entrenched bureaucracy.  They are the problem.  They sit through administration after administration, and changing the letter after the name at the top means nothing to them.  


Government needs an enema and a diet.  Changing the hat on top doesn't do anything about the lard packed in the middle.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @TheRuddSki On the link to the PPE procedures on your own link:


'This guidance is current as of October 20, 2014"


That means that was the last change date.  These are post-Duncan protocols, because the Duncan era protocols failed.

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @bmarvel @JimSX "When we said it before Jan 2009, you nodded sagely, thinking that we were talking about GWB.  When we said it Jan 29, 2009, you went apoplectic thinking we were talking about Obama."

Apparently, phelps, you are  under the illusion that I am some kind of Democrat. I am not. I have been firmly independent since I cast my first vote in the 1950s. 

As to nodding sagely in 2009, you did not know me then, had never heard of me. So you have no way of knowing whether I was nodding or shaking my had. 

You imagine I am an Obama enthusiast because you have no way of envisioning politics outside a rigid ideological structure -- in your case, possibly libertarian, which is every bit as rigid as either of the major parties. Please don't push your simple little diagrams or right and left off onto me, phelps. I don't fit them  and neither do most Americans -- about 40 percent -- who identify themselves as neither strongly conservative or liberal. Nor libertarian, for that matter.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps 

Websites are changed frequently, it does not mean anything of substance was changed.  it means nothing in regard to what the protocols were before vs today.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

Mav seems to think I made up the faulty, disappeared guidelines, even though they're right there at the provided link from Twitchy.

Poor guy will get a well-deserved vacation when O's gone, what a trouper.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@bmarvel @everlastingphelps @JimSX There are no independents.  There are partisans who admit it, and partisans who lie to themselves.  See Bruce E. Keith, The Myth of the Independent.  Study after study shows that the people who claims to be independent reliably vote for the same party -- they just claim independent because sometimes they vote against the party (or more often simply don't vote.)


So, when I hear "I'm independent" I translate that to "I'm not honest with myself about my leanings, and work hard to continue my delusion."

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@mavdog @everlastingphelps The CDC had messed up protocols prior to oct 20, depending on who was sourced or referenced.  A quick search will lead to tens of stories on the switched protocols and when it occurred, some will even put up both protocols and let you find the differences for yourself.


link that shows pre-Oct 16 ebola protocols at CDC website and slew of tweets from knowledgeable people identifying errors:


http://twitchy.com/2014/10/19/orwellian-whitewash-cdc-deletes-faulty-ebola-guidelines-poster-paging-ebola-czar/

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

Mav seems to think I made up the faulty, disappeared guidelines, even though they're right there at the provided link from Twitchy.

odd, I looked over the above any don't see me saying that you "made up" anything. I did show a link to the CDC website that you apparently aren't aware of, or refuse to acknowledge.

I also don't see any links on your posts...

seems that you have a cognitive issue, which isn't that unusual actually.

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @bmarvel @JimSX "There are no independents.  There are partisans who admit it, and partisans who lie to themselves."

This strikes a new note of nuttiness even for you, phelps. Every election cycle, the parties position and posture amnd spend millions in an effort to win verf the independent voters, that part of the vote they know they cannot count upon. That is, the not-at-all-"reliable" Democrats and Republicans. 

But if you are so easily swayed by a single book by some academic out in California, phelps, far be it from me to shatter your illusion. Stumble on in your left-right, black-white world. 

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@RTGolden1 

I see the criticism. It is interesting to note they saw the problem with these instructions and responded.

An important point to notice is these are general PPE guidelines, which are not specifically tailored nor focused on Ebola. To refer to them as "ebola protocols" is inaccurate.The link which I provided are the Ebola guidelines.

There is a statement on the removed instructions: "The type of PPE used will vary based on the level of precautions required, such as standard and contact, droplet or airborne isolation precautions."

One thing to remember is "one size does not fit all", there should be Ebola specific guidelines, as well as other similar situations such as SARS etc. These guidelines pictured were not.

TheRuddSki
TheRuddSki topcommenter

@mavdog

I saw your link, and acknowledged with my reply.

The link referenced was "posted days ago".

Read twice, snark once.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@bmarvel @everlastingphelps

Phelps has merely taken the conclusions of Keith and his team and taken those to an extreme. not too hard to understand when one looks through the lens of seeing everyone as a "partisan".

the recent polling shows that those who call themselves "independent" do tend to vote for one or the other party most of the time. that's not surprising tho, and the fact that it isn't all the time underscores the fact they are independent.

the only voters who aren't independent are those who do actually fit phelp's label- true partisans, those on the extreme.

everlastingphelps
everlastingphelps topcommenter

@bmarvel @everlastingphelps @JimSX Political parties do lots of stupid and wasteful things.  The Obama campaign did not -- they ignored the independents and concentrated on two groups -- democrat partisans, and democrat partisans who claimed to be independent.  They used data mining to identify the closet democrats, and then conducted massive GOTV operations.


Don't look at what they say -- "independents" love to be flattered that they are independent, so that is what they say to attract their half.  Look at what they do.  The Obama campaign did "fuck independents, GOTV."  The GOP is now doing the same thing.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@mavdog @RTGolden1 Also, from your provided "Ebola-specific" guidelines, the first point they make:


"1. Prior to working with Ebola patients, all healthcare workers involved in the care of Ebola patients must have received repeated training and have demonstrated competency in performing all Ebola-related infection control practices and procedures, and specifically in donning/doffing proper PPE."

Oops, they dropped the ball on that, putting it out about 20 days too late.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@mavdog @RTGolden1 Single glove and remove gloves first are incorrect in any protective posture.  An army private fresh out of basic training could have looked at those and determined the incompetence of the CDC or whoever authored those 'generic PPE guidelines'.


The point remains: Those were the CDC protocols everyone is saying weren't followed.  There were no other CDC guidelines (that I'm aware of) for use of, donning or removal of, PPE.  And those guidelines were sketchy at best, unquestionably inadequate, and likely put anyone who followed them in danger of exposure.


My question for you is this:  If, as you have contended all along, the CDC has no authority to step in and oversee (Control and Prevention) the measures taken to contain something like Ebola, what is the purpose of funding and operating it?  It would appear that the CDC is nothing more than a reservoir of jobs for the greater Atlanta metropolitan area, with good benefits and some travel opportunities to places one wouldn't want to go.  Let's quit pouring money into that useless agency and give it to the hospitals and health care workers really facing the front lines in controlling and preventing the spread of infectious diseases.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@TheRuddSki 

I did read it twice, and it said "they're right there at the provided link from Twitchy".

it wasn't "right there", and there wasn't a "provided link".

don't get your panties in a wad just because you made an error. just admit you made a mistake and move on.

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@mavdog @bmarvel @everlastingphelps I've been lectured by partisan friends of both the left and the right for being wishy-washy. They are the ones, it seems to me, who have no fixed convictions and thus allow one or the other parties to dictate their opinions -- and their votes.


Psychologist Jonathan Haidt and his students examined a large number of voters who described themselves as strongly partisan. They found that political leanings reflect personality traits and have more to do with temperament, general mood, aversion or attraction to novelty, suspicion of strangers and so forth, and very little to do with a carefully thought-out or articulated political philosophy. It was the personality, in fact, that dictated the politics.  (See Haidt's "The Righteous Mind.")

Thus it makes little sense to ask someone whether he or she is a Democrat or a Republican, a "liberal" or a "conservative." Ask, rather, what are their feelings about abortion rights, a balanced  budget, immigration, defense spending, gay marriage, gun control, and so forth. Only then can you begin to understand a little of their politics. But only a little. 

     

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@everlastingphelps @bmarvel @JimSX I'd have to disagree with you Phelps. There are independents.  I'm one of them.  Like buckus and even Jim, you merely view those who disagree with you as being partisan for the other side.  My views fall left and right on different issues and my votes have gone to democrat, republican, libertarian, and even the green party once (in a hungover state, never repeated).

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@RTGolden1 

who is at fault for the lack of training of "all heathcare workers"?

the hospital. the people that supervise the hospital.

that is not the CDC responsibiltiy, nor do they have ANY power or mandate to do such.

pointing a finger at the CDC for this failure of training is flat out wrong.

mavdog
mavdog topcommenter

@RTGolden1

The CDC is not set up to "oversee" or supervise hospitals, the medical community or any of our country's heathcare providers. that was never their mission, they have never been tasked with that responsibility.

what is our money going to? a state of the art research group, a collection of scientists who conduct cutting edge research. there are other medical for-profit orgs who also do similar, but they only do it if there is money to be made. for many afflications that profit if there is a cure doesn't exist.

the role of a supervisory group does need to be filled, our archaic framework of state by state administration should be changed. this episode shows that to clearly be the case.

bmarvel
bmarvel topcommenter

@RTGolden1 @everlastingphelps @bmarvel @JimSX  "My views fall left and right on different issues"

Precisely, Golden. You and I might disagree on any single issue --or any number of issues. Phelps makes one error about the middle: That we are secretly partisan. The other error is that we are alike in our middle-ness, predictable and therefore up for grabs by whatever party manages to hit the right note. What nonsense! We're all over the map depending upon our individual response to individual issues. This is why there will probably never be a permanent third party. As soon as there is a third party, most of us will distance ourselves from it.

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